does -jaj have the "may your request be granted" meaning ?
SoS tu'lu', 'ej bIghHa'Daq ghaHtaH puqloDDaj'e'. puqloDDaj jonHa'meH voDleH, voDleH qoy'choH SoS, 'ej tagha' Qochbe' voDleH, vaj jatlh: "may your request be granted". mu'tlheghvam wImughmeH, maqon: {qaSjaj chaballIj}. lugh'a' {-jaj} lo'vam ? ~ Qa'yIn
On 9/30/2020 9:51 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
SoS tu'lu', 'ej bIghHa'Daq ghaHtaH puqloDDaj'e'. puqloDDaj jonHa'meH voDleH, voDleH qoy'choH SoS, 'ej tagha' Qochbe' voDleH, vaj jatlh:
"may your request be granted".
mu'tlheghvam wImughmeH, maqon: {qaSjaj chaballIj}. lugh'a' {-jaj} lo'vam ?
This is a peculiar circumlocution probably related to the station of the speaker, not typical grammar. A child asking a parent for a cookie won't hear "May your request be granted." I'm not sure that you'd hear it in English in this form, even from royalty. Without any information that Klingon upper echelons speak in a such a way, I wouldn't do it. The emperor might reply *vIjonHa'*/I release him/ or *jonHa'lu' 'e' vIchaw'*/I permit him to be released/ or even just *jonHa'lu'*/he is released/he will be released./ If someone says *qaSjaj* /may it happen,/ they're not commanding that it be done or saying it will happen in the future. It's just the expression of a wish or desire on the part of the speaker: /I hope it happens./ // -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
We do hear it in another form: “May your prayers be answered” (the answer “yes” being implied). Instead of {qaS} I would probably use {laj} “accept”. There’s an idiom from paq’batlh: {ghu' chup}: ghu' Dachupbogh vIlaj I will accept your proposal (PB p. 144f.) FYI there’s an interesting line from ENT "Affliction". A struggling prisoner protested being a part of Dr. Antaak’s medical research: vImuHlu' net wuqHa'! loHwI' vISuch 'e' vIpoQ! My death sentence was commuted! I demand to see the magistrate! Unfortunately for him it didn’t work, and Gen. K’Vagh shot him anyway. Making demands of a Klingon general is not a good idea. -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons __________________________________________________________________ From: SuStel Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 10:03 AM On 9/30/2020 9:51 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote: "may your request be granted". mu'tlheghvam wImughmeH, maqon: {qaSjaj chaballIj}. lugh'a' {-jaj} lo'vam ? This is a peculiar circumlocution probably related to the station of the speaker, not typical grammar. A child asking a parent for a cookie won't hear "May your request be granted." I'm not sure that you'd hear it in English in this form, even from royalty. Without any information that Klingon upper echelons speak in a such a way, I wouldn't do it. [….] If someone says qaSjaj may it happen, they're not commanding that it be done or saying it will happen in the future. It's just the expression of a wish or desire on the part of the speaker: I hope it happens. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/trimboli.name__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!uD4boqFbUDMW-2qH4Uekk6Abl7QLMM_2fl1xrVaL9iNxF-jQnH2vRiowIJ_Y48omVdE$>
Before SuStel explained what your sentence really means, I only saw it as a wish, because that's what {-jaj} implies. So if it it just means that, you may use it: Kid: "I'm going to ask mom for a cookie." {jIHvaD chab nob SoS 'e' vItlhobrup} Sister: "May your wish be granted". {chab DaneHbogh Dunobjaj.} = "Good luck! I hope it works." Any other usage than a wish is not suited for {-jaj}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
Everyone has been using the word “wish” to describe the verb suffix {-jaj}. My understanding has been that it’s more like a blessing than a wish. It’s one thing to wish someone success in battle. That’s subtly different from addressing the person who is about to go to battle and offer the blessing, “May you be successful in battle!” I can wish I had a sandwich. That’s not what I’d use {-jaj} for, though. “May it be that I get a sandwich!” Really? Yes, you wish for the thing that you offer as a blessing, but offering a blessing is really different from generic wishing in an important way. It’s more like, “There’s an entity for which I want something, and I’d like to muster whatever small influence I have over Fate to improve the odds that this entity gets what I’m wishing for it." charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Sep 30, 2020, at 12:34 PM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Before SuStel explained what your sentence really means, I only saw it as a wish, because that's what {-jaj} implies.
So if it it just means that, you may use it:
Kid: "I'm going to ask mom for a cookie." {jIHvaD chab nob SoS 'e' vItlhobrup}
Sister: "May your wish be granted". {chab DaneHbogh Dunobjaj.} = "Good luck! I hope it works."
Any other usage than a wish is not suited for {-jaj}.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 30.09.2020 um 20:17 schrieb Will Martin:
Everyone has been using the word “wish” to describe the verb suffix {-jaj}. My understanding has been that it’s more like a blessing than a wish.
I agree with what you say. The word "wish" is used because that's how TKD describes it: <<This suffix is used to express a desire or wish on the part of the speaker that something take place in the future. [...] {-jaj} is often translated with "may" or "let," and it is particularly useful when placing a curse or making a toast.>> (TKD, addendum 176) So, yes: you don't use that to express a wish for a Christmas present, or a wish for a sandwich. The suggested usage of the translation with "may" reminds me of a quote spoken by Q in TNG: "May whatever god you believe in have mercy on your soul..." – Q does not literally "wish" that it happens, he says it more like a blessing. (Now I want to check how the translation of "Let it snow" was made :-) ) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Type9VerbSuffixes
This confusion may be why Marc Okrand came up with {jIn} "wish". Lieven provided his conversation with him in the [qepHom 2015 booklet (p. 12): MO: {chabal} is something desired or requested. There also is a verb"to wish", as in "I wish I could…} {jIn}. tlhIngan jIH 'e' vIjIn I wish I were a Klingon. LL: In German, the verb wish can have an indirect object, which sounds awkward in English […] MO: No, that's something you want: Like in English, you either say "I wish I had a beer" or just "I want a beer". The verb {jIn} cannot have a thing as an object. LL: What about the song "We wish you a merry Christmas..."? MO: That's a different wish; that's not this one. It's more the {-jaj} solution. {jIn} usually has a phrase as an object, not a thing. -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons ----------------------------------------Original Message---------------------------------------- From: Lieven L. Litaer Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 1:34 PM Am 30.09.2020 um 20:17 schrieb Will Martin:
Everyone has been using the word “wish” to describe the verb suffix {-jaj}. My understanding has been that it’s more like a blessing than a wish.
I agree with what you say. The word "wish" is used because that's how TKD describes it: <<This suffix is used to express a desire or wish on the part of the speaker that something take place in the future. [...] {-jaj} is often translated with "may" or "let," and it is particularly useful when placing a curse or making a toast.>> (TKD, addendum 176) So, yes: you don't use that to express a wish for a Christmas present, or a wish for a sandwich.
On 9/30/2020 2:17 PM, Will Martin wrote:
Everyone has been using the word “wish” to describe the verb suffix {-jaj}. My understanding has been that it’s more like a blessing than a wish. It’s one thing to wish someone success in battle. That’s subtly different from addressing the person who is about to go to battle and offer the blessing, “May you be successful in battle!”
I can wish I had a sandwich.
That’s not what I’d use {-jaj} for, though. “May it be that I get a sandwich!” Really?
Yes, you wish for the thing that you offer as a blessing, but offering a blessing is really different from generic wishing in an important way. It’s more like, “There’s an entity for which I want something, and I’d like to muster whatever small influence I have over Fate to improve the odds that this entity gets what I’m wishing for it."
*-jaj* forms the Klingon optative mood. It is not about influencing fate or giving blessings; it is about expressing a hope for the future with the subtext that you believe the thing you hope for is somehow right or proper. If you happen to believe in supernatural powers you might speak to them to get them to act on your behalf, but that's not what *-jaj* is about. (/God save the Queen/ is optative, but it is not addressing God and is not imperative. Who else but the God you are not addressing is going to influence God into saving the Queen?) *-jaj* is also not just about /wanting/ something. If you were a hungry prisoner, you wouldn't tell your guard, *choje'jaj*/may you feed me./ You would just say *choje' vIneH*/I want you to feed me/ (or, more simply, *HIje'* /feed me!)/ Using *-jaj* has to express a hope in the face of possible failure. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Sep 30, 2020, at 9:37 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SoS tu'lu', 'ej bIghHa'Daq ghaHtaH puqloDDaj'e'. puqloDDaj jonHa'meH voDleH, voDleH qoy'choH SoS, 'ej tagha' Qochbe' voDleH, vaj jatlh:
"may your request be granted".
mu'tlheghvam wImughmeH, maqon: {qaSjaj chaballIj}. lugh'a' {-jaj} lo'vam ?
I don’t understand the question. Of course -jaj is appropriate when expressing a desire for something to happen in the future. That’s what it means. The only way I can see for you to be confused about it is if you think “may your request be granted” means the same thing as “your request is granted.” I have encountered similar phrases using ”let” instead of “may”. They’re both “permission” words, but I only know “let” for the equivalent of a third-person imperative. However... At qep'a' wejDIch, Marc Okrand gave a brief speech in Klingon before the Cabaret. He ended with taghjaj Qujmey, and translated it as Let the games begin! That’s a bit of evidence in favor of using -jaj for the kind of idea that you might be asking about. -- ghunchu'wI'
SuStel voragh lieven charghwI' ghunchu'wI' je Sujangpu'mo', Satlho'. jIH:
"may your request be granted" SuStel: I'm not sure that you'd hear it in English in this form, even from royalty ghunchu'wI': I don’t understand the question
SuStel, bIlugh; 'elaDya' Hol paqDaq "may" lo'vam vItu'pu', 'ej meqvammo' yajlaHbe' ghunchu'wI'. 'elaDya' Hol "may" lo' oH. 'ej vIt vI'otHa'meH, jIjatlhnIS je: < 'elaDya' Hol ngo' bop QIn tlheghvam ghu' qay'.. > "may" lo'vam vIDelmeH, 'op eob new testament mu'tlhegh vIrevnIS. pelaD.. eob matthew paq vIrev; (eob = eastern orthodox bible) 8:13: "... let it be done for you as you have believed" 9:29: "... according to your faith let it be done to you" 10:13: "if the household is worthy let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you" 11:15: "... let anyone with ears listen" 15:28: "... woman, great is your faith, let it be done to you even as you desire ..." 16:24: "... if anyone desires to come after me let him deny himself take up his cross and follow me" 19:6: "therefore what god has joined together let no one tear apart" 19:12 "... he who is able to receive this saying let him receive it" DIvI' Hol eob mughta'ghach mu'tlhegh bIH mu'tlheghvam'e', 'ej "let" mu' lulo'. 'a "let" mu' lo'be' 'elaDya' Hol text wa'DIch. "let" mu' lulo'be' 'elaDya' Hol ngo' mu'tlheghmeyvam.. DaH peqIm; 'elaDya' Hol ngo' mu'tlheghmeyvam mughqangchugh vay', 'ej mu'tlheghmeyvamvaD 'elaDya' Hol vur mu'tlheghmey mojqangmoHchugh, vaj "may" mu' lo'nIS. wanI'*vam*mo' jImISchoHpu'. tlhIngan {-jaj} mojaq yajmeH laHwIj nISchu'pu' 'elaDya' Hol.. 'ach DaH jIyaj, 'ej meqvammo' Satlho'. ghunchu'wI':
At qep'a' wejDIch, Marc Okrand gave a brief speech in Klingon before the Cabaret. He ended with taghjaj Qujmey, and translated it as Let the games begin! That’s a bit of evidence in favor of using -jaj for the kind of idea that you might be asking about.
potlhbej De'vam. 'ej De'vam DalInpu'mo', qatlho'. Do'Ha', wa' wanI' neH 'oH wanI'vam.. meqvammo', jIQaghbe'bejmeH, jInmeH wanI''e' neH chIwbogh {-jaj} vIqel, {-jaj} vIlo'taHvIS ~ Qa'yIn
There have been a remarkable number of Klingon Bible Translation efforts, often driven by personal passion. Of these, I know of one completed translation of the New Testament, often criticized as slap-dash. One was started as a very serious, academic venture, working from original texts in original languages, but that was never finished. Several others have posted here piecemeal. I think it’s useless to work from English translations because the text is so remarkably stylized, and it’s been through so many translations and interpretations to get to English, and it essentially lacks any contemporary equivalent in terms of things that people write. It’s not a novel. It’s not a documentary. It could be interpreted as a fantasy or a history, but it doesn’t fit either category well. Myth? There’s often a knee-jerk reaction against it being referred to as a myth because all myths are fictional lies, and THIS one is the TRUTH, right? People who read the Bible already have taken from it what they will. They will not get more from a Klingon translation. You may find personal satisfaction from the act of doing it, since the process of translation may open your mind to shades of meaning that you have not already explored, but that’s really very personal, like translating poetry, which is not something that really works in a committee/community setting. It’s personal. Bible and poetry translation both tend to get more eye-rolls than zealous support here, because they are really too personal for this setting, in my very personal opinion. Others are free to disagree. We could really use more original Klingon literature. Qov is queen of that effort. We could use more like her. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Oct 1, 2020, at 8:20 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SuStel voragh lieven charghwI' ghunchu'wI' je Sujangpu'mo', Satlho'.
jIH:
"may your request be granted" SuStel: I'm not sure that you'd hear it in English in this form, even from royalty ghunchu'wI': I don’t understand the question
SuStel, bIlugh; 'elaDya' Hol paqDaq "may" lo'vam vItu'pu', 'ej meqvammo' yajlaHbe' ghunchu'wI'. 'elaDya' Hol "may" lo' oH. 'ej vIt vI'otHa'meH, jIjatlhnIS je: < 'elaDya' Hol ngo' bop QIn tlheghvam ghu' qay'.. >
"may" lo'vam vIDelmeH, 'op eob new testament mu'tlhegh vIrevnIS. pelaD..
eob matthew paq vIrev; (eob = eastern orthodox bible)
8:13: "... let it be done for you as you have believed" 9:29: "... according to your faith let it be done to you" 10:13: "if the household is worthy let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you" 11:15: "... let anyone with ears listen" 15:28: "... woman, great is your faith, let it be done to you even as you desire ..." 16:24: "... if anyone desires to come after me let him deny himself take up his cross and follow me" 19:6: "therefore what god has joined together let no one tear apart" 19:12 "... he who is able to receive this saying let him receive it"
DIvI' Hol eob mughta'ghach mu'tlhegh bIH mu'tlheghvam'e', 'ej "let" mu' lulo'. 'a "let" mu' lo'be' 'elaDya' Hol text wa'DIch. "let" mu' lulo'be' 'elaDya' Hol ngo' mu'tlheghmeyvam..
DaH peqIm; 'elaDya' Hol ngo' mu'tlheghmeyvam mughqangchugh vay', 'ej mu'tlheghmeyvamvaD 'elaDya' Hol vur mu'tlheghmey mojqangmoHchugh, vaj "may" mu' lo'nIS. wanI'*vam*mo' jImISchoHpu'.
tlhIngan {-jaj} mojaq yajmeH laHwIj nISchu'pu' 'elaDya' Hol.. 'ach DaH jIyaj, 'ej meqvammo' Satlho'.
ghunchu'wI':
At qep'a' wejDIch, Marc Okrand gave a brief speech in Klingon before the Cabaret. He ended with taghjaj Qujmey, and translated it as Let the games begin! That’s a bit of evidence in favor of using -jaj for the kind of idea that you might be asking about.
potlhbej De'vam. 'ej De'vam DalInpu'mo', qatlho'.
Do'Ha', wa' wanI' neH 'oH wanI'vam.. meqvammo', jIQaghbe'bejmeH, jInmeH wanI''e' neH chIwbogh {-jaj} vIqel, {-jaj} vIlo'taHvIS
~ Qa'yIn _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
charghwI', Do'Ha' bIyajHa'pu'. bible mughmeH mIw bopbe' QIn tlheghvam. {-jaj} bop, 'ej SuStelvaD ghunchu'wI'vaD je mumISmoHbogh {-jaj} lo' vIyajmoHmeH, bible mu'tlheghmey vIrevpu'. ghunchu'wI':
Bible and poetry translation both tend to get more eye-rolls than zealous support here
'ach bible mughqangchugh matlh jup ghaHbogh jatlhwI''e', vaj Sulopqangchu'.. ghunchu'wI':
We could really use more original Klingon literature
maj. vaj nIteb Hoch DaneHbogh yImugh. 'a poHDaj tlhIn lo'taHvIS nuv pIm, ghaHvaD pagh yIjatlh. ~ Qa'yIn
“So let it be written; so let it be done.” (Pharaoh Rameses II [Yul Brynner], “The Ten Commandments” [1956]) __ Voragh _______________________________________________________________ From: Alan Anderson Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 11:42 PM On Sep 30, 2020, at 9:37 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: SoS tu'lu', 'ej bIghHa'Daq ghaHtaH puqloDDaj'e'. puqloDDaj jonHa'meH voDleH, voDleH qoy'choH SoS, 'ej tagha' Qochbe' voDleH, vaj jatlh: "may your request be granted". mu'tlheghvam wImughmeH, maqon: {qaSjaj chaballIj}. lugh'a' {-jaj} lo'vam ? I don’t understand the question. Of course -jaj is appropriate when expressing a desire for something to happen in the future. That’s what it means. The only way I can see for you to be confused about it is if you think “may your request be granted” means the same thing as “your request is granted.” I have encountered similar phrases using ”let” instead of “may”. They’re both “permission” words, but I only know “let” for the equivalent of a third-person imperative. However... At qep'a' wejDIch, Marc Okrand gave a brief speech in Klingon before the Cabaret. He ended with taghjaj Qujmey, and translated it as Let the games begin! That’s a bit of evidence in favor of using -jaj for the kind of idea that you might be asking about. -- ghunchu'wI'
participants (6)
-
Alan Anderson -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin