Re: [tlhIngan Hol] expressing baby animals (and words for dog)
Anyways, I just decided that until we get a Ca'Non way to express this>(yeah right, as if that's ever gonna happen..) I'll be using {Ha'DIbaH-ghu} like this:
{vIghro'-ghu} for "kitten" {ngavyaw'-ghu} for "puppy" {bo'Degh-ghu} for whatever the hell you call baby birds in english.
Chicks? Anyway, I hadn't thought of saying *vighro'ghu*, *ngavyaw'ghu*, *qovIjghu*, or *bo'Deghghu* before. I remembered reading that -Hom was the standard way to name the young of animals (on this mailing list, I believe). -Hom creates some problems, though: if *SarghHom* is "foal", then how do you say "pony"? I don't know what all of you think, but I think a *SarghHom* would be a pony and a *Sarghghu* would be a foal. Then we have KLV Klingon/Standard Vocabulary - KLV, which uses *SarghHom* for "donkey". Foals, ponies, and donkeys all being SarghHommey? I don't think so! And then we'd have to figure out how to say "donkey foal". I don't know if Kronos has a donkey-analogue that's a different species from a regular Sargh, but it seems there's no really satisfactory way to say "donkey" (without getting cumbersomely long, like "Terran long-ear-having sark"). | | | | | | | | | | | KLV Klingon/Standard Vocabulary - KLV Klingon Language Version of the World English Bible | | | And then, if I said *Sargh way*, I'm sure all of you would know what I meant. Or would *tera' Sargh way* or *'avrI'qa' Sargh way* be better?
I thought of this possibility, and to be honest I can't feel much of a difference between a "cat baby" and a "baby cat", but perhaps being influenced from the Ca'Non {DI'raq loD}/{DI'raq be'}, which perhaps have nothing to do with the matter at hand, I prefer the {vIghro'-ghu} more. Let alone that the {vIghro'-ghu} is closer to the "baby of the cat" meaning.
I agree with your reasoning; if we put -loD and -be' at the end, why shouldn't -ghu go at the end? Would a filly be a Sarghghube' or a Sarghbe'ghu? Or a Sargh be'Hom? Also: I notice you usually use *ngavyaw'* in your translation for dogs. I'd imagine a dog like a poodle or a bichon frisé would be a qovIj. Why? *ngavyaw'* backwards sounds like White Fang, who was a wolf-dog hybrid, so I'd use *ngavyaw* for wolves and coyotes, and also lupine dogs such as Huskies. *qovIj* backwards is *jIvoq* -- I have faith, or I trust. This is the English translation of "Fido". People who speak English as a second language may or not know this, but Fido is used as an archetypal dog's name in English -- much as Fluffy is an archetypal cat's name (just look at the articles on WebMD), or Polly an archetypal parrot's name, or Dobbin was a standard name for horses in the earlier centuries in the English-speaking world. In fact, there was also an Italian dog named Fido who, like Greyfriars Bobby, was known for his extreme faith/loyalty to his master long after the master passed away! So I would call my sister's dog Poppin or my friend La Netta's bichon frisé Tussey a qovIj.
On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 18:10, James Landau <savegraduation@yahoo.com> wrote:
Anyway, I hadn't thought of saying *vighro'ghu*, *ngavyaw'ghu*, *qovIjghu*, or *bo'Deghghu* before. I remembered reading that -Hom was the standard way to name the young of animals (on this mailing list, I believe). -Hom creates some problems, though: if *SarghHom* is "foal", then how do you say "pony"? I don't know what all of you think, but I think a *SarghHom* would be a pony and a *Sarghghu* would be a foal.
I'm sure both that a {Qa'Hom} is a different species than a {Qa'} and that the word is indeed {Qa'} + {-Hom}. So I don't think {-Hom} makes the name of the young of animals. Where did you see/hear/read that this was "the standard way" to do so?
Then we have KLV Klingon/Standard Vocabulary - KLV <https://sites.google.com/a/klingonword.org/klv/klv-klingon-standard-vocabulary>, which uses *SarghHom* for "donkey".
I don't think the KLV "translation" project is viewed highly by most skilled Klingon speakers (to put it politely). -- De'vID
On 12/1/2021 3:01 PM, De'vID wrote:
On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 18:10, James Landau <savegraduation@yahoo.com> wrote:
Anyway, I hadn't thought of saying *vighro'ghu*, *ngavyaw'ghu*, *qovIjghu*, or *bo'Deghghu* before. I remembered reading that -Hom was the standard way to name the young of animals (on this mailing list, I believe). -Hom creates some problems, though: if *SarghHom* is "foal", then how do you say "pony"? I don't know what all of you think, but I think a *SarghHom* would be a pony and a *Sarghghu* would be a foal.
*Sargh*/sark /(analogous to a horse)/ /*Sargh mach*/small sark /(in the same way that a pony is a small breed of horse)/ /*Sargh ghu*/baby sark /(in the same way that a foal is an immature horse)
I'm sure both that a {Qa'Hom} is a different species than a {Qa'} and that the word is indeed {Qa'} + {-Hom}. So I don't think {-Hom} makes the name of the young of animals.
"The translation /titmouse/ is really only an approximation of what this word means. A *Qa'Hom* is a small animal considered rather insignificant. The word literally means /little *Qa'.*/ A *Qa'* is a larger, more dangerous animal. A *Qa'Hom* is not a young *Qa',* but it does bear a vague resemblance to its namesake." (KCD) I feel quite certain that *Qa'Hom* is a lexicalized name. If someone really did want to talk about a "minor *Qa',*" whatever that is, they'd have to explain, "No no, not actually a *Qa'Hom,* but a minor *Qa'.*" -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 01.12.2021 um 21:15 schrieb SuStel:
"The translation /titmouse/ is really only an approximation of what this word means. A *Qa'Hom* is a small animal considered rather insignificant. The word literally means /little *Qa'.*/ A *Qa'* is a larger, more dangerous animal. A *Qa'Hom* is not a young *Qa',* but it does bear a vague resemblance to its namesake." (KCD)
For the record, it should be mentioned that on the KCD, there was an image of a hedgehog to explain what a {Qa'Hom} is. A titmouse on the other hand is a bird. I suppose the producers or the writers mixed this up and thought that a titmouse is a mouse. After all, Okrand explained in HolQeD (and to me in person) that the {Qa'Hom} is not a bird. See the image here: http://klingon.wiki/Word/Qa-Hom -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com
Adding some details to Lieven's post: (HolQeD 10:4 p.4-5): The {Qa'Hom}, an animal similar to a {Qa'} but smaller, has been confused with a bird by some; Maltz does not know why, especially since it is the {jajlo' Qa'}, not the {Qa'Hom}, that makes a fuss in the morning like the {'uSgheb} does.) (Lieven, 3/21/2017): I recently had to translate the text for a children's show where the main characters are a mouse and an elephant. Okrand agreed that the word {Qa'Hom} for mouse is fine, but Maltz was not aware of an elephant like animal, so he suggested I just say {'e'levan}. (Lieven on http://klingon.wiki/Word/Qa-Hom ): In a personal message with Lieven L. Litaer of May 2021, Okrand confirmed that as the Klingon CD shows a picture of a hedgehog for the {Qa'Hom}, we should consider that as a fact, that the Klingon animal really is something that looks like that image. Am 01.12.2021 um 21:15 schrieb SuStel:
"The translation /titmouse/ is really only an approximation of what this word means. A *Qa'Hom* is a small animal considered rather insignificant. The word literally means /little *Qa'.*/ A *Qa'* is a larger, more dangerous animal. A *Qa'Hom* is not a young *Qa',* but it does bear a vague resemblance to its namesake." (KCD)
The epithet {Qa'Hom} can be applied to someone or something that may act like it's a vicious {Qa'} but is just a little, harmless creature, fluffing itself up to make itself look bigger and thus not worth killing. This is how Gowron uses it in the introduction to the KCD Immersion Studies: "There is no honor in being a {Qa'Hom}." Someone once suggested that the Maoist epithet "paper tiger" would be a good equivalent. My notes say that KCD also refers to a {lIghon Qa'Hom} or "Ligonian titmouse" -- a little alien animal that looks sort of {Qa'Hom}-ey. (Can someone check this for me? In all these years I've never been able to run KCD.) For those who've forgotten, Ligon II was where Tasha Yar fought Lutan's wife Yareena in a duel to the death with spiked glavins in TNG "Code of Honor". To further confuse matters {QelIS boqHarmey} (Alice's Adventures) gives us {neSngech}, a "dormouse-like animal". A dormouse isn't actually a mouse but some of the pictures are certainly mouse-like in appearance, but with furred rather than scaly tails. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormouse ) Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of Lieven L. Litaer De'vID:
I'm sure both that a {Qa'Hom} is a different species than a {Qa'} and that the word is indeed {Qa'} + {-Hom}. So I don't think {-Hom} makes the name of the young of animals.
Am 01.12.2021 um 21:15 schrieb SuStel::
I feel quite certain that Qa'Hom is a lexicalized name. If someone really did want to talk about a "minor Qa'," whatever that is, they'd have to explain, "No no, not actually a Qa'Hom, but a minor Qa'."
For the record, it should be mentioned that on the KCD, there was an image of a hedgehog to explain what a {Qa'Hom} is. A titmouse on the other hand is a bird. I suppose the producers or the writers mixed this up and thought that a titmouse is a mouse. After all, Okrand explained in HolQeD (and to me in person) that the {Qa'Hom} is not a bird. See the image here: http://klingon.wiki/Word/Qa-Hom
Am 01.12.2021 um 22:30 schrieb Steven Boozer:
My notes say that KCD also refers to a {lIghon Qa'Hom} or "Ligonian titmouse" -- a little alien animal that looks sort of {Qa'Hom}-ey. (Can someone check this for me? In all these years I've never been able to run KCD.)
I just checked the sound files, they say nothing like that. But the description text-file for the curse {Qa'Hom} reads: "little animal (eg, ligonian titmouse)"
To further confuse matters {QelIS boqHarmey} (Alice's Adventures) gives us {neSngech}, a "dormouse-like animal". A dormouse isn't actually a mouse but some of the pictures are certainly mouse-like in appearance, but with furred rather than scaly tails. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormouse ) To expand this even a bit more: In the original version, Alice plays a round of Croquet with hedgehogs as balls. In the Klingon version, those are {woSwa'mey}, animals that can roll up to balls, but they are not hedgehogs. They are more like armadillos.
The discussion about this word came when when I tried to distinguish the "mouse" from the "hedgehogs". I first thought of using {Qa'Hom} for the mouse, but then realized that a) a titmouse is not a mouse, and b) according to KCD, it looks like a hedgehog. As this might have caused confusion, Maltz told me about the {woSwa'} and the {lIS'ab}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/AliceInWonderland
Oh, I forgot about {lIS'ab}: (qep’a’ 2021): This animal is more rat-sized than mouse-sized, but a {vIghro'} might well chase it. Its face kind of resembles that of a bat (though a bat is not a rodent). -- Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of Lieven L. Litaer Am 01.12.2021 um 22:30 schrieb Steven Boozer:
To further confuse matters {QelIS boqHarmey} (Alice's Adventures) gives us {neSngech}, a "dormouse-like animal". A dormouse isn't actually a mouse but some of the pictures are certainly mouse-like in appearance, but with furred rather than scaly tails. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormouse )
To expand this even a bit more: In the original version, Alice plays a round of Croquet with hedgehogs as balls. In the Klingon version, those are {woSwa'mey}, animals that can roll up to balls, but they are not hedgehogs. They are more like armadillos. The discussion about this word came when when I tried to distinguish the "mouse" from the "hedgehogs". I first thought of using {Qa'Hom} for the mouse, but then realized that a) a titmouse is not a mouse, and b) according to KCD, it looks like a hedgehog. As this might have caused confusion, Maltz told me about the {woSwa'} and the {lIS'ab}.
On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 22:30, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
This is how Gowron uses it in the introduction to the KCD Immersion Studies: "There is no honor in being a {Qa'Hom}."
Typo or error in your notes? He says "There is no honour in *killing* a {Qa'Hom}." He follows that by saying that after the player finishes the game... excuse me, holodeck adventure... then they will no longer be as weak as a {Qa'Hom}, and "then it will be an honour to kill you".
My notes say that KCD also refers to a {lIghon Qa'Hom} or "Ligonian titmouse" -- a little alien animal that looks sort of {Qa'Hom}-ey.
As Lieven said, the text says "little animal (eg, ligonian titmouse)", and the picture is of a hedgehog, but the Klingon expression {lIghon Qa'Hom} does not appear anywhere. Probably someone mistranslated the English back into Klingon out of context. In context, the "Ligonian titmouse" is only an example of the type of insignificant animal that a {Qa'Hom} resembles, i.e., it resembles it in being insignificant, and not physically. (I'm sure Okrand made that up to cover for the fact that someone on the game's production staff didn't realise a "titmouse" is a type of bird, and not a type of rodent, which a hedgehog also is not!) -- De'vID
“Typo or error in your notes?” Probably a bit of both. Lieven and De’vID, thanks for checking this for me. {yIvoq 'ach yI'ol!} __ Voragh ______________________________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of De'vID On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 22:30, Steven Boozer wrote: This is how Gowron uses it in the introduction to the KCD Immersion Studies: "There is no honor in being a {Qa'Hom}." Typo or error in your notes? He says "There is no honour in *killing* a {Qa'Hom}." He follows that by saying that after the player finishes the game... excuse me, holodeck adventure... then they will no longer be as weak as a {Qa'Hom}, and "then it will be an honour to kill you". My notes say that KCD also refers to a {lIghon Qa'Hom} or "Ligonian titmouse" -- a little alien animal that looks sort of {Qa'Hom}-ey. As Lieven said, the text says "little animal (eg, ligonian titmouse)", and the picture is of a hedgehog, but the Klingon expression {lIghon Qa'Hom} does not appear anywhere. Probably someone mistranslated the English back into Klingon out of context. In context, the "Ligonian titmouse" is only an example of the type of insignificant animal that a {Qa'Hom} resembles, i.e., it resembles it in being insignificant, and not physically. (I'm sure Okrand made that up to cover for the fact that someone on the game's production staff didn't realise a "titmouse" is a type of bird, and not a type of rodent, which a hedgehog also is not!)
I wonder how the {chuSwI'} fits in all this, which I was under the impression that it's a mouse/rat thing. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
Well whatever it is, it’s noisy – {chuS} “be noisy”. "A rodent that mostly lives underground and makes an annoying noise." (KEBH [ie. “Klingon Empire: A Burning House” series]) It was first referenced in Keith R.A. DeCandido's novel “Enemy Territory”. The spelling was vetted by Okrand in DeCandido's “The Klingon Art of War”. I’d forgotten about this one as well. Has anyone other than DeCandido used it? Voragh _____________________________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of mayqel qunen'oS I wonder how the {chuSwI'} fits in all this, which I was under the impression that it's a mouse/rat thing.
participants (6)
-
De'vID -
James Landau -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel