On 10/26/2020 12:13 PM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:

I guess it depends on your interpretation of the song, but I'm not certain that it's necessary for the plot of the song to specify that it is a ferry as opposed to any other kind of voyage that you are paying for; the key, in my mind, is the idea of paying the person responsible for your safe passage before said goal has been achieved, for fear that they will not deliver on their part of the bargain.

I didn't say it was necessary for the plot of the song, just that it might be a better translation of /ferryman./ I wasn't making any corrections, just a couple of suggestions. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

Indeed, another line from paq’batlh: pawDI' Hegh Duj DeghDaq Qam qotar When the Barge of the Dead came, Kotar stood at its helm (PB) Voragh From: Felix Malmenbeck Sent: Monday, October 26, 2020 11:14 AM An alternative to {pIn'a'} would be {DeghwI'} - "helmsman". In paq'batlh, for example, qotar is described as the DeghwI' of the Hegh Duj: Daq SumHa'vo' wab Huj Qoylu' qa' bIQ Dujvo' wab Huj Qoylu' DeghwI' ghaH qotar'e' //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2020 16:55 To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] don't pay the ferryman On 10/26/2020 11:47 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote: bom: don't pay the ferryman QoQ ghom: twinball "don't pay the ferryman, don't even fix a price, don't pay the ferryman until he gets you to the other side" < bIQ Duj pIn'a' yIDIlQo', DIlmeH Huch poQbogh yIlajQo', bIQ Duj pIn'a' yIDIlQo', SoHvaD Dop Dop qengpu'pa' > bomvam vImuSHa'. I wonder if bIQ lupwI' pIn'a' might be better for ferryman. Transporting something or someone is integral to the meaning of ferry. Instead of SoHvaD Dop Dop qengpu'pa', how about DuchIqmoHchu'pu'pa' before he has caused you to cross completely? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/trimboli.name__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!v5C186bXa5l0mdYZ9K2uu-ZeZBZ037aZ4QUYFeLn5RTBLvYFutwHQGV5qPM2fazRZ1w$>

Thanks for checking. Perhaps I missed it, but this doesn’t mention how Charon became the ferryman of the dead, only that he was – which is what I remembered. I looked at WikiPedia and discovered another ferryman: Phlegyas, angry at Apollo for killing his daughter, torched the Apollonian temple at Delphi, causing Apollo to kill him with his arrows and condemn him to severe punishment in the lower world. […] In the Aeneid of Virgil, Phlegyas is shown tormented in Tartarus in the Underworld, warning others not to despise the gods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegyas This is a bit closer to what we know of Kortar: According to legend Kortar, the "first" Klingon, and his mate destroyed the gods who made them and turned the heavens into ashes. (DS9 "You Are Cordially Invited...") As punishment he was condemned to ferry the souls of the dishonored dead over the River of Blood to the gates of Gre'thor. (VOY "Barge of the Dead") Cf. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Kortar for more details. __ Voragh _________________________________________________________ From: mayqel qunen'oS Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 2:01 PM voragh:

For those up on their Greek mythology: How did Charon get his job? Was he, too, being punished?

voragh, yIlaD: https://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Kharon.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Kharon.html__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!tRhlfcCbOIkt_ZX025R3AdbuvvFbR_Xq1dZRF0TDbaAKIddUFkqDX4u9vb99nilQ2b4$> 'elaDya' Qunpu' rIchbogh 'Internet Daq law'qu''e' tu'lu', 'a Daqmeyvam'e' theoi.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/theoi.com__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!tRhlfcCbOIkt_ZX025R3AdbuvvFbR_Xq1dZRF0TDbaAKIddUFkqDX4u9vb99626IiWo$> nIv law' Hoch nIv puS 'e' vI'Ir. charon bopbogh Daqvam De' vIlaDpu'be', 'Iqmo' De'vam, 'ej poH yap vIghajbe'mo'. 'a wa' jaj charon vIqIH.. wa' jaj charon qIH Hoch.. Sanvam junlaH pagh; vaj Qu'Daj mung vIghojmeH, jajvetlh charon vIyu'. ~ Q

Thanks for the Quora reference. (What a useful site!): Charon most likely was given the post of ferryman of souls because of his family connections. He was a son of Erebus. [....] The soul had to pay for the passage so a coin, usually an obolus or danake, would be placed in the mouth or under the tongue of the deceased. Sounds like a lucrative job with plenty of job security. I wonder what he spent all his money on? -- Voragh -----Original Message----------Original Message----------Original Message----- From: mayqel qunen'oS Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 6:41 AM voragh:

Thanks for checking.

'ej Sojvam vIQulqa'pu'.. chaq SoHvaD 'op De' Daj 'otHa'laH 'Internet Daqvam: https://www.quora.com/How-did-Charon-become-the-ferryman 'a Do'Ha' charon Qu' mung Sovchu' pagh.. 'e' vItlhoj, 'Internet Daqvam De' vIHaDpu'DI'. ~ Q _______________________________________________

(KGT 149-50): There is no known verb {Degh}, but if there were such a word, presumably it would mean “steer”, and {DeghwI'}, then, would be literally “one who steers” […] There is a related noun {Degh} (“helm”), but since {-wI'} follows only verbs, there must have been a verb {Degh} at one time that has fallen out of use, at least in the sense of “steer” … in the usual sense of guiding a vessel along a set course or defined path Roger Cheesbro (DloraH) used {DeghwI'} “helmsman” for ferryman in his “{ghIlghameS}: A Klingon Translation” (2000). A ferryman is just a special type of helmsman. Klingon Monopoly though used the verb {qeng} for “ferry”: Hegh Duj DatIj 'ej ghe'torDaq Duqeng "Barge of the Dead" ferries you to Gre'thor! (MKE) FYI: Kortar is the ferryman on the mythical “Barge of the Dead” who was condemned to ferry the souls of the dishonored dead over the River of Blood to the gates of Gre'thor as punishment destroying the gods who created him. (VOY "Barge of the Dead") He’s the Klingon equivalent of Charon. For those up on their Greek mythology: How did Charon get his job? Was he, too, being punished? -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons ________________________________________________________________ From: SuStel Sent: Monday, October 26, 2020 On 10/26/2020 11:47 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote: bom: don't pay the ferryman QoQ ghom: twinball "don't pay the ferryman, don't even fix a price, don't pay the ferryman until he gets you to the other side" < bIQ Duj pIn'a' yIDIlQo', DIlmeH Huch poQbogh yIlajQo', bIQ Duj pIn'a' yIDIlQo', SoHvaD Dop Dop qengpu'pa' > I wonder if bIQ lupwI' pIn'a' might be better for ferryman. Transporting something or someone is integral to the meaning of ferry. --