Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor
The above quote, unless I'm mistaken, can be attributed to the late Truman Capote. However, it sounds extremely Klingon, and I figured I'd try and translate it. At the moment, I have this: lujlu'DI' Qapla' 'eymoH wanI', ghevI' rur. I thought about including something like {'ej SIbIHa' Qaplu'DI'} before the noun {Qapla'}, but it felt like the resulting phrase would be too long, and the meaning should be clear without the additional words. What do you all think? - SapIr
Strictly speaking, {ghevI'} just refers to gagh sauce and not condiments in general, though the metaphor probably works fine even if a specific condiment is named, so it's not a big deal. Your translation seems fine in terms of getting the meaning across: "When one fails, the event makes success delicious, it's like gagh sauce." What sort of stylistic qualities are you going for? Do you want something concise? Something that's similar to the structure of the original? Something that avoids {-ghach}? On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:41 PM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
The above quote, unless I'm mistaken, can be attributed to the late Truman Capote. However, it sounds extremely Klingon, and I figured I'd try and translate it. At the moment, I have this:
lujlu'DI' Qapla' 'eymoH wanI', ghevI' rur.
I thought about including something like {'ej SIbIHa' Qaplu'DI'} before the noun {Qapla'}, but it felt like the resulting phrase would be too long, and the meaning should be clear without the additional words.
What do you all think?
- SapIr _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 08:42:46PM -0500, nIqolay Q wrote:
Strictly speaking, {ghevI'} just refers to gagh sauce and not condiments in general, though the metaphor probably works fine even if a specific condiment is named, so it's not a big deal.
That's what I was going for. I don't think there's a word for condiments in general, and since {qagh} is so central to Klingon cuisine, I figured that {ghevI'} would probably be reasonably likely to show up in this sort of proverb-ish saying.
Your translation seems fine in terms of getting the meaning across: "When one fails, the event makes success delicious, it's like gagh sauce." What sort of stylistic qualities are you going for? Do you want something concise? Something that's similar to the structure of the original? Something that avoids {-ghach}?
Given how Klingon seems to work, I've been trying to avoid both {-ghach} and {-bogh} unless I decide that I really need them, since so many things (especially proverbs of this sort) that in English use nominalized verbs and relative clauses tend to skip them in Klingon. I'm also trying to work around English-style phrasings such as "give something a flavor". But I guess these aren't absolute necessities as long as the resulting sentence is grammatical. Ideally, the resulting phrase would be fairly short, or at least not long enough that it feels like an explanation rather than a pithy remark that fits in a clause or two. I realize after thinking about this again that you can get something fairly short that matches the English more closely: Qapla' 'eymoHbogh ghevI' 'oH lujlu'ghach'e'. Or maybe this: Qapla' 'eymoHbogh ghevI' bIH Qaghmey'e'. I may end up going with the last one; {Qagh} is about as close as Klingon has to a non-{-ghach} noun for "failure". - SapIr
On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:41 PM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
The above quote, unless I'm mistaken, can be attributed to the late Truman Capote. However, it sounds extremely Klingon, and I figured I'd try and translate it. At the moment, I have this:
lujlu'DI' Qapla' 'eymoH wanI', ghevI' rur.
I thought about including something like {'ej SIbIHa' Qaplu'DI'} before the noun {Qapla'}, but it felt like the resulting phrase would be too long, and the meaning should be clear without the additional words.
What do you all think?
- SapIr _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
To add one last thing: What would really be nice would be if there were a verb describing what a condiment (such as {ghevI’}) does to its main dish. {‘eymoH} doesn’t really cut it, since we’re talking about adding flavor rather than making the dish delicious all at once. Something like “season”. Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 3, 2017, at 04:14, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 08:42:46PM -0500, nIqolay Q wrote: Strictly speaking, {ghevI'} just refers to gagh sauce and not condiments in general, though the metaphor probably works fine even if a specific condiment is named, so it's not a big deal.
That's what I was going for. I don't think there's a word for condiments in general, and since {qagh} is so central to Klingon cuisine, I figured that {ghevI'} would probably be reasonably likely to show up in this sort of proverb-ish saying.
Your translation seems fine in terms of getting the meaning across: "When one fails, the event makes success delicious, it's like gagh sauce." What sort of stylistic qualities are you going for? Do you want something concise? Something that's similar to the structure of the original? Something that avoids {-ghach}?
Given how Klingon seems to work, I've been trying to avoid both {-ghach} and {-bogh} unless I decide that I really need them, since so many things (especially proverbs of this sort) that in English use nominalized verbs and relative clauses tend to skip them in Klingon. I'm also trying to work around English-style phrasings such as "give something a flavor". But I guess these aren't absolute necessities as long as the resulting sentence is grammatical. Ideally, the resulting phrase would be fairly short, or at least not long enough that it feels like an explanation rather than a pithy remark that fits in a clause or two.
I realize after thinking about this again that you can get something fairly short that matches the English more closely:
Qapla' 'eymoHbogh ghevI' 'oH lujlu'ghach'e'.
Or maybe this:
Qapla' 'eymoHbogh ghevI' bIH Qaghmey'e'.
I may end up going with the last one; {Qagh} is about as close as Klingon has to a non-{-ghach} noun for "failure".
- SapIr
On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:41 PM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
The above quote, unless I'm mistaken, can be attributed to the late Truman Capote. However, it sounds extremely Klingon, and I figured I'd try and translate it. At the moment, I have this:
lujlu'DI' Qapla' 'eymoH wanI', ghevI' rur.
I thought about including something like {'ej SIbIHa' Qaplu'DI'} before the noun {Qapla'}, but it felt like the resulting phrase would be too long, and the meaning should be clear without the additional words.
What do you all think?
- SapIr _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 3 December 2017 at 03:33, <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
To add one last thing:
What would really be nice would be if there were a verb describing what a condiment (such as {ghevI’}) does to its main dish. {‘eymoH} doesn’t really cut it, since we’re talking about adding flavor rather than making the dish delicious all at once. Something like “season”.
{XvaD wejwa' chel}? -- De'vID
On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 9:14 PM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
Given how Klingon seems to work, I've been trying to avoid both {-ghach} and {-bogh} unless I decide that I really need them, since so many things (especially proverbs of this sort) that in English use nominalized verbs and relative clauses tend to skip them in Klingon.
I could have sworn there was canon about how {-ghach} itself was a marked suffix that draws attention to itself (which is why I mentioned avoiding it), but it looks like using {-ghach} without suffixes is what's marked ( http://klingonska.org/canon/1994-09-holqed-03-3-a.txt), and that {-ghach} itself seems to be fine. I thought I knew canon better than that. {Hu'tegh!} Anyway, sometimes using {-ghach} too much can suggest that you just got lazy and didn't try to think about your sentence, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it, especially if it's the best fit for your sentence. {-bogh} is wholly uncontroversial. A look through "The Klingon Way" shows plenty of relative clause s in proverbs.
I'm also trying to work around English-style phrasings such as "give something a flavor".
It's good to be aware of Englishisms in your translations, but I'm not sure "give something a flavor" is inherently too English-y. Flavor is a thing, and things can be given. It's a metaphorical sort of giving, maybe, but the whole expression is a metaphor. As an alternative to {nob}, {ghajmoH} is pretty basic but serviceable. I also like De'vID's suggestion of {chel}.
Qapla' 'eymoHbogh ghevI' 'oH lujlu'ghach'e'.
This is fine; it's pretty much the first thing I thought of. (I went with {lujpu'ghach'e'} myself, but {-lu'} also makes sense.)
Or maybe this:
Qapla' 'eymoHbogh ghevI' bIH Qaghmey'e'.
I may end up going with the last one; {Qagh} is about as close as Klingon has to a non-{-ghach} noun for "failure".
I wouldn't use {Qagh} "mistake" as a synonym for failure. {pIqarD HoD} says it better than I could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TCX90yALsI (That's a pretty Klingon sentiment too... a first attempt at a translation: {Qaghbe'chugh vay', vabDot lujlaH vay'. puj 'oHbe'. yIn 'oH.}) You could get even shorter, depending on what parts of the original you're willing to drop and how much of the metaphor you want to leave implied: {Qapla' ghevI' 'oH lujpu'ghach'e'} "Failure is the sauce of success." {Qapla' 'eymoH lujpu'ghach'e'} "Failure makes success delicious." {lujpu'ghach jablu'DI' je reH QaQqu' Qapla' nay'} "Success is a dish best served with failure." (This has very little to do with the original phrasing, but the food metaphor made me want to riff on the familiar Klingon proverb.)
I'd like to suggest also using {tlhorgh}, since according to the KGT: To the Klingon palate, the best food tastes {tlhorgh} ("pungent," though
some non-Klingons may prefer to translate the word as "rank" or "gamy")
So we could have: {Qapla' tlhorghmoH lujpu'ghach'e'} It is failure that makes success pungent/delicious. Or, since verbs are generally preferred in Klingon: {bIQappa' bIlujchugh, reH tlhorghqu' Qapla'} If you fail before you succeed, success is always very pungent/delicious What do you think ? 2017-12-03 4:57 GMT+01:00 nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com>:
On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 9:14 PM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
Given how Klingon seems to work, I've been trying to avoid both {-ghach} and {-bogh} unless I decide that I really need them, since so many things (especially proverbs of this sort) that in English use nominalized verbs and relative clauses tend to skip them in Klingon.
I could have sworn there was canon about how {-ghach} itself was a marked suffix that draws attention to itself (which is why I mentioned avoiding it), but it looks like using {-ghach} without suffixes is what's marked (http://klingonska.org/canon/1994-09-holqed-03-3-a.txt), and that {-ghach} itself seems to be fine. I thought I knew canon better than that. {Hu'tegh!} Anyway, sometimes using {-ghach} too much can suggest that you just got lazy and didn't try to think about your sentence, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it, especially if it's the best fit for your sentence.
{-bogh} is wholly uncontroversial. A look through "The Klingon Way" shows plenty of relative clause s in proverbs.
I'm also trying to work around English-style phrasings such as "give something a flavor".
It's good to be aware of Englishisms in your translations, but I'm not sure "give something a flavor" is inherently too English-y. Flavor is a thing, and things can be given. It's a metaphorical sort of giving, maybe, but the whole expression is a metaphor. As an alternative to {nob}, {ghajmoH} is pretty basic but serviceable. I also like De'vID's suggestion of {chel}.
Qapla' 'eymoHbogh ghevI' 'oH lujlu'ghach'e'.
This is fine; it's pretty much the first thing I thought of. (I went with {lujpu'ghach'e'} myself, but {-lu'} also makes sense.)
Or maybe this:
Qapla' 'eymoHbogh ghevI' bIH Qaghmey'e'.
I may end up going with the last one; {Qagh} is about as close as Klingon has to a non-{-ghach} noun for "failure".
I wouldn't use {Qagh} "mistake" as a synonym for failure. {pIqarD HoD} says it better than I could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TCX90yALsI (That's a pretty Klingon sentiment too... a first attempt at a translation: {Qaghbe'chugh vay', vabDot lujlaH vay'. puj 'oHbe'. yIn 'oH.})
You could get even shorter, depending on what parts of the original you're willing to drop and how much of the metaphor you want to leave implied: {Qapla' ghevI' 'oH lujpu'ghach'e'} "Failure is the sauce of success." {Qapla' 'eymoH lujpu'ghach'e'} "Failure makes success delicious."
{lujpu'ghach jablu'DI' je reH QaQqu' Qapla' nay'} "Success is a dish best served with failure." (This has very little to do with the original phrasing, but the food metaphor made me want to riff on the familiar Klingon proverb.)
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{Qapla' tlhorghmoH lujpu'ghach'e'}
I think that’s excellent; of course, success is naturally delicious, but it’s flavor that really brings out the flavor. One might also consider «jejmoH», but I think that might obscure the meaning a bit. I also think -ghach works very nicely here; the ability to distinguish betweeen «lujtaHghach» and «lujpu’ghach» plays to the language’s strengths. That being said, I do think there is one more interpretation of the phrase that is worth considering: That it’s the *possibility* of failure that makes success so sweet, rather than previous experiences of failure: «Qapla’ tlhorghmoH lujlaHghach’e’.» «lujlaHbe’chugh vay’, tlhorghbe’ Qapla’.» (Compare with the saying «bIlujlaHbe’chugh bIQaplaHbe’.») //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Aurélie Demonchaux <demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2017 8:37:10 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor I'd like to suggest also using {tlhorgh}, since according to the KGT: To the Klingon palate, the best food tastes {tlhorgh} ("pungent," though some non-Klingons may prefer to translate the word as "rank" or "gamy") So we could have: {Qapla' tlhorghmoH lujpu'ghach'e'} It is failure that makes success pungent/delicious. Or, since verbs are generally preferred in Klingon: {bIQappa' bIlujchugh, reH tlhorghqu' Qapla'} If you fail before you succeed, success is always very pungent/delicious What do you think ? 2017-12-03 4:57 GMT+01:00 nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com<mailto:niqolay0@gmail.com>>: On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 9:14 PM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net<mailto:kechpaja@comcast.net>> wrote: Given how Klingon seems to work, I've been trying to avoid both {-ghach} and {-bogh} unless I decide that I really need them, since so many things (especially proverbs of this sort) that in English use nominalized verbs and relative clauses tend to skip them in Klingon. I could have sworn there was canon about how {-ghach} itself was a marked suffix that draws attention to itself (which is why I mentioned avoiding it), but it looks like using {-ghach} without suffixes is what's marked (http://klingonska.org/canon/1994-09-holqed-03-3-a.txt), and that {-ghach} itself seems to be fine. I thought I knew canon better than that. {Hu'tegh!} Anyway, sometimes using {-ghach} too much can suggest that you just got lazy and didn't try to think about your sentence, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it, especially if it's the best fit for your sentence. {-bogh} is wholly uncontroversial. A look through "The Klingon Way" shows plenty of relative clause s in proverbs. I'm also trying to work around English-style phrasings such as "give something a flavor". It's good to be aware of Englishisms in your translations, but I'm not sure "give something a flavor" is inherently too English-y. Flavor is a thing, and things can be given. It's a metaphorical sort of giving, maybe, but the whole expression is a metaphor. As an alternative to {nob}, {ghajmoH} is pretty basic but serviceable. I also like De'vID's suggestion of {chel}. Qapla' 'eymoHbogh ghevI' 'oH lujlu'ghach'e'. This is fine; it's pretty much the first thing I thought of. (I went with {lujpu'ghach'e'} myself, but {-lu'} also makes sense.) Or maybe this: Qapla' 'eymoHbogh ghevI' bIH Qaghmey'e'. I may end up going with the last one; {Qagh} is about as close as Klingon has to a non-{-ghach} noun for "failure". I wouldn't use {Qagh} "mistake" as a synonym for failure. {pIqarD HoD} says it better than I could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TCX90yALsI (That's a pretty Klingon sentiment too... a first attempt at a translation: {Qaghbe'chugh vay', vabDot lujlaH vay'. puj 'oHbe'. yIn 'oH.}) You could get even shorter, depending on what parts of the original you're willing to drop and how much of the metaphor you want to leave implied: {Qapla' ghevI' 'oH lujpu'ghach'e'} "Failure is the sauce of success." {Qapla' 'eymoH lujpu'ghach'e'} "Failure makes success delicious." {lujpu'ghach jablu'DI' je reH QaQqu' Qapla' nay'} "Success is a dish best served with failure." (This has very little to do with the original phrasing, but the food metaphor made me want to riff on the familiar Klingon proverb.) _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (6)
-
Aurélie Demonchaux -
De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
kechpaja -
kechpaja＠comcast.net
-
nIqolay Q