I want to say "a dishonorable warrior", but unfortunately we only have {quvHa'}, which is given as "be dishonored". So, my problem is (again) the fact that english isn't my native language.. The way I understand "dishonorable" is that someone "is dishonorable". And the way I understand "dishonored", is that "someone has been dishonored by someone or something". Back to the original question, if I want to describe a warrior who is dishonorable, but "hasn't been dishonored by a specific event or person", then how do I say it ? Is the english "dishonored warrior", significantly different from "dishonorable warrior" ? I thought of writing {quvbe'bogh SuvwI'}, however can't this be understood as "a warrior who isn't honorable on one hand, but isn't dishonorable on the other" ? Can't this mean just "a warrior who's somewhere in between" ? Anyways, cutting to the chase, (as americans say), how would you say "dishonorable warrior" ? Would you settle for a mere {SuvwI' quvHa'}, and pray to kahless that the reader gets it ? ~ bara'qa'
On 10/30/2019 10:34 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
Is the english "dishonored warrior", significantly different from "dishonorable warrior" ?
The way I understand it, a /dishonorable warrior/ is one who behaves or will behave with dishonor, and a /dishonored warrior/ is one who is recognized as having done something dishonorable in the past. *SuvwI' quvHa'*/dishonored warrior/ *batlhHa' vangbogh SuvwI'*/dishonorable warrior/ You could change the verb *vang* to whatever is more appropriate in context. For instance, a warrior who fights dishonorably would be *batlhHa' Suvbogh SuvwI'* while a warrior who spies dishonorably on his own side would be *batlhHa' ghoqbogh SuvwI'.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
quv honor (n) quv lughaj Archer HoD beqDaj je. Captain Archer and his crew are honorable people. (ENT "The Augments") which may imply ?{quvHa'ghach ghaj SuvwI'} "a dishonorable warrior". quv be honored, be honorable SoHvaD quvwI’ qem Hegh 'e' wIvDI’ Hegh pop Hevchugh quvwI’ The honorable will be rewarded After death chooses to bring them to you PB Which suggests you could refer to the warrior as the {quvHa'wI'} " dishonorable one". GARAK: It's the honorable thing to do. WORF: You use that word, but you have no idea what it means. GARAK: Perhaps not, but you do. [DS9 "In Purgatory's Shadow"] As Worf suggests, Klingon and Cardassian ideas of honor and dishonor are different. (Or maybe Worf was insulting Garak specifically; he was a disgraced spy forced to live in exile among his enemies after all.) (HQ 12.3:9): All this talk of pseudo-honor and non-honor logically led to a discussion of honor itself, normally expressed by the nouns {quv} and {batlh}, both usually defined as simply "honor". When asked to distinguish between the two, Maltz said, {tlhIngan Soj 'oH-–not bIyaj}, literally, "It is Klingon food-—you will not understand," using {Soj} "food" in its idiomatic sense of "matter, concern, affair". Nevertheless, here are some examples of how to talk about dishonor: quvHa' be dishonored (v) quvHa'; ghe'tor ngan rur dishonored as an inhabitant of Gre'thor (KGT) De' nIb DachenmoHchugh bIquvHa' To duplicate data is a great dishonor. (DCTF2) qaStaHvIS wej puq poHmey vav puqloDpu' puqloDpu'chaj je quvHa'moH vav quvHa'ghach The dishonor of the father dishonors his sons and their sons for three generations. (TKW) HoQ be honored falsely, be falsely honorable (v) (HQ 12.3:8-9): Maltz … said [{HoQ}] could be used in the same places {quv} "be honored, be honorable" could be used, but only then the honor was not legitimate. Thus, a delegate to the Klingon Empire could well be described as a {Duy quv} "honored emissary", but if it turned out that he or she was a spy, the phrase {Duy HoQ} "falsely honored emissary" would be appropriate. Qaq behave falsely honorably, behave in a falsely honorable manner (v) (HQ 12.3:8-9): {Qaq} "behave falsely honorably, behave in a falsely honorable manner" … is used in cases where one misrepresents oneself in order to be accorded honor one is not entitled to, and in that way it is different from {toj} "deceive" and {ghet} "pretend", neither of which has this kind of connection to honor […] mIl be formerly honored (v) (HQ 12.3:8-9): [{mIl}] would be applied to a leader who left office in disgrace, for example, or an ousted ship's captain. It would not be used of a {'utlh}, an officer who has stepped down or retired voluntarily and who is still respected. yIntaHwI'pu' vImIlHa'moH jIH, Heghpu'wI'pu' DamIlHa'moH SoH I will restore honor among the living, you will restore honor among the dead. (PB) And don't forget there are other qualities available depending on why the warrior is dishonorable. E.g. web be disgraced (v) qal be corrupt (v) yuD be dishonest (v) -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons ----------------------------------------Original Message---------------------------------------- From: mayqel qunen'oS I want to say "a dishonorable warrior", but unfortunately we only have {quvHa'}, which is given as "be dishonored". So, my problem is (again) the fact that english isn't my native language.. The way I understand "dishonorable" is that someone "is dishonorable". And the way I understand "dishonored", is that "someone has been dishonored by someone or something". Back to the original question, if I want to describe a warrior who is dishonorable, but "hasn't been dishonored by a specific event or person", then how do I say it ? Is the english "dishonored warrior", significantly different from "dishonorable warrior" ? I thought of writing {quvbe'bogh SuvwI'}, however can't this be understood as "a warrior who isn't honorable on one hand, but isn't dishonorable on the other" ? Can't this mean just "a warrior who's somewhere in between" ? Anyways, cutting to the chase, (as americans say), how would you say "dishonorable warrior" ? Would you settle for a mere {SuvwI' quvHa'}, and pray to kahless that the reader gets it ?
I wonder, which of the two would be best to express "hypocrites", as in "woe unto you scribes and pharisees, hypocrites". {HoQwI'pu'} or {QaqwI'pu'} ? - bara'qa'
HQ 12.3:8-9): {Qaq} "behave falsely honorably, behave in a falsely honorable manner" … is used in cases where one misrepresents oneself in order to be accorded honor one is not entitled to, and in that way it is different from {toj} "deceive" and {ghet} "pretend", neither of which has this kind of connection to honor […] {ghet} and {ghetwI'} “pretender” generally do not imply deception, but simply role-playing. In this case since deception is implied I would use {QaqwI’} for someone “misrepresents oneself in order to be accorded honor one is not entitled to”. Voragh -------------------------------------- Original message --------------------------------- From: mayqel qunen'oS I wonder, which of the two would be best to express "hypocrites", as in "woe unto you scribes and pharisees, hypocrites". {HoQwI'pu'} or {QaqwI'pu'} ?
“Hypocrite” has a complex meaning that likely has no simple word-replacement translation into Klingon. A hypocrite’s specific behavior is to espouse and promote one behavior while violating his own advice to others. There’s a comedian who goes by the name “Brother Bob” who has expressed the hypocrite’s code of ethics: “I don’t practice what I preach because I don’t preach to people like me.” I think this is an instance where you have to decide what the original author intended the phrase “woe unto you scribes and phrases, hypocrites,” to mean at the most specific detail of meaning, including the context that your reader won’t have available to him, and then with that idea in mind, express it in Klingon, ignoring the original grammar or word choice. You translate the meaning, not the words. The word “hypocrite” may require an entire paragraph to convey. It’s like saying, “Fred is just like Sam.” People who know both Fred and Sam and recognize the characteristics they have in common can understand that statement, but the rest of us are clueless, so if you want to express that to the rest of us, you have some explaining to do, and you won’t do it in one short sentence. The person who originally wrote this knew what a scribe was in his time and culture, and the reference probably had little to do with making a living writing things down, which is all we really know from the word “scribe” in our modern context. The original context probably included a sense of corruption and abuse of power. You can translate the word “scribe” as a {ghItlhwI’}, but have you actually translated the meaning of the original statement? And what about a “pharisee”? How is a Klingon to understand the original meaning. And all of that doesn’t touch on “hypocrite”. The original is a highly compressed statement based on a context that is unavailable to a Klingon you are translating this for. Maybe it’s like translating a New York subway map for an indigenous village in a village in central Africa. Do you even want to do this? Let the fireworks begin. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Oct 30, 2019, at 2:38 PM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder, which of the two would be best to express "hypocrites", as in "woe unto you scribes and pharisees, hypocrites".
{HoQwI'pu'} or {QaqwI'pu'} ?
- bara'qa'
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On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 at 16:19, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
quv honor (n)
quv lughaj Archer HoD beqDaj je. Captain Archer and his crew are honorable people. (ENT "The Augments")
which may imply ?{quvHa'ghach ghaj SuvwI'} "a dishonorable warrior".
Wouldn't {quv ghajbe'[bogh] SuvwI'} be simpler? -- De'vID
On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 7:13 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
Wouldn't {quv ghajbe'[bogh] SuvwI'} be simpler?
Sure, but using {quvHa'ghach} explicitly might provide more of a rhetorical punch. As for "hypocrite", you might try something like {ghobqoq pabbogh ghot} "person who adheres to so-called virtue", {ghob ngeb pabbogh ghot} "person who adheres to false virtue", {ghobDaj tlhIn pabHa'bogh ghot} "person who breaks their own virtues". I'm not sure how to get it as a single word. I suppose if you wanted to stretch {pab}'s known meaning somewhat, you could try {pabHa''eghwI'} "one who does not adhere to themselves", "one who does not follow their own rules", or the like. (The assumption here is that to {pab} a person would mean something like following the code of ethics that person preaches or demonstrates. It's a bit of a stretch from the existing canon meanings, but it might work for poetry.)
Am 31.10.2019 um 12:13 schrieb De'vID:
Wouldn't {quv ghajbe'[bogh] SuvwI'} be simpler?
This can even be shorter: {quv Hutlhbogh SuvwI'} and much shorter: {quvHa'wI'} -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
participants (7)
-
De'vID -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin