adverbs acting on each other adverbs referring to each other
Suppose someone is asking something, and now he wants to ask slightly differently. So he says: DaH loQ jaS jIghel I think that the above sentence would be correct for that purpose, and if it is indeed correct, then this shows that when we have two adverbs in a row, and of course the context makes sense, then an adverb can act on the other. Of course, if I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
jIH:
Of course, if I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected.
However, I don't think I'm wrong, since there's the adverb {DaH} which perhaps no one would disagree if we used it as.. DaH vabDot bISuvqangbe' even now you are unwilling to fight So, yep! That's it. Case closed. This answers the problem, (or at least *my* problem).. So off to pdf this thread and add it to my notes. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
We have canon sentences with multiple advers, for example here are three (paq'batlh): chaq tugh batlh Heghmo' For they may soon die with honor I think it should be interpreted that the adverbs affect the whole sentence. chaq refers to tugh batlh Heghmo'. What happens maybe? They die soon with honor. tugh refers to batlh Heghmo'. What happens soon? They die with honor. batlh refers to Heghmo'. What happens honorably? They die. In you sentence DaH loQ jaS jIghel the word loQ refers to jaS jIghel, not only to jaS. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Monday, January 17th, 2022 at 17.06, mayqel qunen'oS mihkoun@gmail.com wrote:
jIH:> Of course, if I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected.
However, I don't think I'm wrong, since there's the adverb {DaH} which perhaps no one would disagree if we used it as..
DaH vabDot bISuvqangbe'even now you are unwilling to fight
So, yep! That's it. Case closed. This answers the problem, (or at least my problem).. So off to pdf this thread and add it to my notes.
--
Dana'an
https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/
Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
On 1/17/2022 10:06 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
jIH:
Of course, if I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected.
However, I don't think I'm wrong, since there's the adverb {DaH} which perhaps no one would disagree if we used it as..
DaH vabDot bISuvqangbe' even now you are unwilling to fight
So, yep! That's it. Case closed. This answers the problem, (or at least *my* problem).. So off to pdf this thread and add it to my notes.
Not so fast! Who says that *DaH* is modifying *vabDot* in that sentence? I think it's perfectly possible that each adverbial should be considered to modify the entire sentence including all the other adverbials. So in *DaH vabDot bISuvqangbe'* we have: *DaH* modifies *vabDot bISuvqangbe': */Now, you are even willing to fight./ *vabDot* modifies *DaH bISuvqangbe': */It is even the case that you are willing to fight now./ If this is correct, then this sentence is not evidence that adverbials directly modify each other the way you're supposing. Don't jump to conclusions. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Agreed. The point here is that Okrand tells us how one adverbial functions in a sentence. He leaves us clueless as to how multiple adverbials would interact, or even if they don’t interact at all and merely both add their meaning to the main verb. I’m not saying that’s how it works. It just seems to have never occurred to Maltz that anybody would want to put two adverbials in one sentence. For that matter, it could be the case that an adverbial has a slot in the sentence’s grammar just like a suffix has a “Type” slot on a noun or verb. You can’t have two suffixes of the same type. Maybe we can’t have two adverbials. Canon could prove otherwise, of course. I’m grinning at the activity I’m sure I just sparked among those who keep up with canon and organize their search capabilities... pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Jan 17, 2022, at 10:59 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 1/17/2022 10:06 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
jIH:
Of course, if I'm wrong, I'd love to be corrected.
However, I don't think I'm wrong, since there's the adverb {DaH} which perhaps no one would disagree if we used it as..
DaH vabDot bISuvqangbe' even now you are unwilling to fight
So, yep! That's it. Case closed. This answers the problem, (or at least *my* problem).. So off to pdf this thread and add it to my notes. Not so fast! Who says that DaH is modifying vabDot in that sentence?
I think it's perfectly possible that each adverbial should be considered to modify the entire sentence including all the other adverbials. So in DaH vabDot bISuvqangbe' we have:
DaH modifies vabDot bISuvqangbe': Now, you are even willing to fight.
vabDot modifies DaH bISuvqangbe': It is even the case that you are willing to fight now.
If this is correct, then this sentence is not evidence that adverbials directly modify each other the way you're supposing. Don't jump to conclusions.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 17.01.2022 um 22:20 schrieb Will Martin:
functions in a sentence. He leaves us clueless as to how multiple adverbials would interact, or even if they don’t interact at all and merely both add their meaning to the main verb.
I'm not saying "yes" or "no" to this, but there seems to be a pattern or a "slot system" somehow that can be deduced from canon examples. The analysis is on the page Word order in the Wiki: http://klingon.wiki/En/WordOrder -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com
lieven:
The analysis is on the page Word order in the Wiki: http://klingon.wiki/En/WordOrder
For the altruistic purpose of helping others follow this thread with ease, but more for the selfish reason of helping myself when I pdf this thread and add it to my notes, I'll perform a glorious copy-paste of the relevant part of that honorable page.. **********wiki quote in rich text starts********** relative ordering of Adverbials There are no written rules about the ordering of adverbials, but there seems to be a scheme based on canon examples. - Each adverbial apparently applies to all that follows. - Degree of certainty seems to precede the scope of the expected delay before the action, and that precedes the quality of the action. - Since *vaj* tends to connect what follows it to a clause or sentence that preceded it, that should come before all else. It seems almost as if there were types of adverbs similar to the way Klingon has types of verb suffixes <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/VerbSuffixes>, based on the following canon examples: *chaq batlh bIvangqa'laH* *You might have a chance to make amends.* (paq'batlh <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/Paqbatlh> p. 100-101) *chaq tugh batlh Heghmo' 'ej chaq tugh charghmo'* *For they may soon die with honor! For they may soon be victorious!* (paq'batlh <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/Paqbatlh> p. 120-121) *reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH* *Let endless battle and honor await them!* (paq'batlh <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/Paqbatlh> p. 150-151) *vaj pe'vIl joqqu' cha' tlhIngan tIqDu'* *Both Klingon hearts beat, at their strongest, in lust for blood.* (paq'batlh <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/Paqbatlh> p. 166-167) Possible interpretation: Type 1 *vaj* Type 2 *chaq* Type 3 *tugh* Type 4 *batlh* You probably can't have two of the same type, and you can have zero or one of each type in any verb clause. **********wiki quote in rich text ends********** -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
And I'll add this in plain text mode too, just because the cat wanted. **********wiki quote in plain text starts********** relative ordering of Adverbials There are no written rules about the ordering of adverbials, but there seems to be a scheme based on canon examples. Each adverbial apparently applies to all that follows. Degree of certainty seems to precede the scope of the expected delay before the action, and that precedes the quality of the action. Since vaj tends to connect what follows it to a clause or sentence that preceded it, that should come before all else. It seems almost as if there were types of adverbs similar to the way Klingon has types of verb suffixes, based on the following canon examples: chaq batlh bIvangqa'laH You might have a chance to make amends. (paq'batlh p. 100-101) chaq tugh batlh Heghmo' 'ej chaq tugh charghmo' For they may soon die with honor! For they may soon be victorious! (paq'batlh p. 120-121) reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH Let endless battle and honor await them! (paq'batlh p. 150-151) vaj pe'vIl joqqu' cha' tlhIngan tIqDu' Both Klingon hearts beat, at their strongest, in lust for blood. (paq'batlh p. 166-167) Possible interpretation: Type 1 vaj Type 2 chaq Type 3 tugh Type 4 batlh You probably can't have two of the same type, and you can have zero or one of each type in any verb clause. **********wiki quote in plain text ends********** -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
The other thing to remember here is that the word {qunI’} wasn’t added to the vocabulary until 2020. Before that, we just had {chuvmey}. It could well be the case that, just as (native) Klingon linguists were previously rumored to have only three classes of words (DIp, wot, chuvmey), which {qunI’} proves to be inaccurate, Klingon linguists might well have different types of {qunI’} with other names for them, just as {qunI’} is another name for a type of {chuvmey}. English has a category of word called “adverb”, but that doesn’t mean Klingon is locked into a single word for all subtypes. There may be other terms we simply don’t know yet.
On Jan 18, 2022, at 6:19 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
lieven:
The analysis is on the page Word order in the Wiki: http://klingon.wiki/En/WordOrder <http://klingon.wiki/En/WordOrder>
For the altruistic purpose of helping others follow this thread with ease, but more for the selfish reason of helping myself when I pdf this thread and add it to my notes, I'll perform a glorious copy-paste of the relevant part of that honorable page..
**********wiki quote in rich text starts********** relative ordering of Adverbials
There are no written rules about the ordering of adverbials, but there seems to be a scheme based on canon examples. Each adverbial apparently applies to all that follows. Degree of certainty seems to precede the scope of the expected delay before the action, and that precedes the quality of the action. Since vaj tends to connect what follows it to a clause or sentence that preceded it, that should come before all else. It seems almost as if there were types of adverbs similar to the way Klingon has types of verb suffixes <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/VerbSuffixes>, based on the following canon examples: chaq batlh bIvangqa'laH You might have a chance to make amends. (paq'batlh <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/Paqbatlh> p. 100-101) chaq tugh batlh Heghmo' 'ej chaq tugh charghmo' For they may soon die with honor! For they may soon be victorious! (paq'batlh <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/Paqbatlh> p. 120-121) reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH Let endless battle and honor await them! (paq'batlh <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/Paqbatlh> p. 150-151) vaj pe'vIl joqqu' cha' tlhIngan tIqDu' Both Klingon hearts beat, at their strongest, in lust for blood. (paq'batlh <http://klingon.wiki/bin/view/En/Paqbatlh> p. 166-167) Possible interpretation: Type 1 vaj Type 2 chaq Type 3 tugh Type 4 batlh You probably can't have two of the same type, and you can have zero or one of each type in any verb clause.
**********wiki quote in rich text ends**********
-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ <https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/> Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (5)
-
Iikka Hauhio -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel -
Will Martin