Maltz on flipping and tipping
Hi there, after there was some confusion on whether the new word {qaw'} meant "tip over" (90°) or "flip over" (180°), Maltz clarified this, and even told us a new word for more clarification. This message is archived at qepHom.de: http://www.qephom.de/e/message_from_maltz_200604.html and in the Klingon Language wiki: http://klingon.wiki/Word/Kaw- -----begin quote -------- After I explained to Maltz what you'd said about flipping and tipping, he said that we should say that {qaw'} means "tip over" and {qaw'moH} means "tip over, knock over, knock down." You'd use {qaw'} if the object tipped over on its own accord or seemingly on its own accord (even if there is a known cause). If you lose your balance, you may {qaw'} (in English, in this situation, you'd probably say "fall" or "fall down" or "fall over" rather than "tip over," but it's the same sort of action). Without remediation, the Leaning Tower of Pisa might {qaw'} one day. A few years ago, we had an earthquake here. I wasn't home at the time, so I didn't know what kind of damage (if any) to expect when I got home. It turns out, almost everything was fine! Only one little statue {qaw'}ed. So what the rebels do is {qaw'moH} the cars (like some folks are doing in the US right now). For flip all the way over, it's a little more complicated. {yoy} means "be upside-down" {yoymoH} is fine for "flip (all the way) over" But if something flipped all the way over on its own accord or seemingly on its own accord (parallel to {qaw'}), that would be {tach} "turn over." You'd be more likely to use {tachmoH} than {yoymoH} when moving someone from a prone to a supine position. And you'd be more likely to use {yoymoH} than {tachmoH} when flipping over hamburgers or pancakes. On the other hand, either would be fine for flipping over cards, with {yoymoH} implying a quicker or crisper action. I can imagine in a Kalibo show, there might be an opportunity to use {tach} without the {-moH}! -----end quote ---------- -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
Anticipating some questions, I asked a few things which Maltz confirmed or explained as follows: MO said okay for these examples I wrote: If the wind blows and a sheet of paper just moves upside down, assuming it does not fly away: {tach nav} and {nav tachmoH SuS} Okrand wrote that {tachmoH} is used "when moving someone from a prone to a supine position." -- Of course, it also works the other way around. Additionally, this was only an example. The verb is NOT limited to bodies. If you turn around in your bed, you'd say {jItach}. For the suggested {jItach'eghmoH}, Okrand wrote: <<<Normally, the first. You could use {jItach'eghmoH} if there were a particular struggle or effort or accomplishment or something like that involved, something that might prevent you from turning yourself over or that's making it particularly hard to do.>>> I asked why {yoy} is used for pancakes, since they have equal sides, so there is no defined "top". MO said: <<< Unless you're drawing pictures or writing on the hamburger or pancake, you're right -- there's no official top. But when you flip the hamburger over, the side that was face up is now face down. It may sound odd to say it's now upside-down, but it's definitely flipped over. Similarly, if you turn it over again, it's weird to say it's right-side up, but it's definitely been flipped over. The gloss in boQwI' for {yoymoH} is pretty good: "turn upside-down, flip, invert."
I wrote: I think that a {yoy} human would be head down, feet in the air. Somehow, "upside down" sounds like when something is /incorrectly/ aligned, not just turned around like a pancake, is it? MO said: <<You're right about that poor human (unless you're talking about an acrobat or something like that, in which case he or she is not poor at all). {yoy} is not just for flat (or flat-ish) things. Rather than considering the upside-down orientation to be "incorrect," though, perhaps think of it as "not the norm, not usual, not customary" or something along those lines.>> -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Hamletmachine
On Tue, 9 Jun 2020 at 09:52, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
-----begin quote -------- After I explained to Maltz what you'd said about flipping and tipping, he said that we should say that {qaw'} means "tip over" and {qaw'moH} means "tip over, knock over, knock down."
You'd use {qaw'} if the object tipped over on its own accord or seemingly on its own accord (even if there is a known cause).
Surely the subject, and not the object. ;-) (Yes, I know he meant "the thing which is tipping" not "the object of the verb". The subject should obviously be this object.) -- De'vID
Am 10.06.2020 um 07:44 schrieb De'vID:
-----begin quote -------- You'd use {qaw'} if the object tipped over on its own accord or seemingly on its own accord (even if there is a known cause).
Surely the subject, and not the object. ;-)
(Yes, I know he meant "the thing which is tipping" not "the object of the verb". The subject should obviously be this object.)
Yes, that is ambiguous, indeed. He meant object in the sense of "thing", not the grammatical "object/subject". But still... If I knock over a {loD}, then {loD} is the object of the verb {qaw'moH}. If then this {loD} does {qaw'}, it's indeed the /object/ (of te previous sentence) that has {qaw'}ed. Does that make sense? Anyway, I'll ad a note to the page in the archive and the wiki. Thanks for pointing out. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/Word/Kaw-
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De'vID -
Lieven L. Litaer