Callimachus Hymn IV To Delos excerpt
“Honoured Hera, of goddesses most excellent far, thine am I, all things are thine, and thou sittest authentic queen of Olympus, and we fear no other female hand; and thou, O Queen wilt know who is the cause of thine anger” *hera* quv, be' chaHbogh Qun'e' SoH povqu' law' Hoch povqu' puS; choghaj, Hoch Daghaj, 'ej *olympus* che'wI'na' SoHtaH, 'ej pagh latlh be' ghop wIbamvIp. 'ej SoH'e', 'o che'wI', QeHlIj qaSmoHpu'bogh nuv Dangu'. (I can't find the words to describe how much I don't give a jay' about the "not using {-vIp} with first-person prefix unless there's a {-be'}" rule). ~ Dana'an
On 6/2/2021 10:54 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
(I can't find the words to describe how much I don't give a jay' about the "not using {-vIp} with first-person prefix unless there's a {-be'}" rule).
Well, think about it. The taboo doesn't say "don't use *-vIp* with a first-person prefix unless there's a *-be'* on it." The rule actually states, "This suffix is rarely used with a prefix meaning /I/ or /we./ Though it is grammatically correct, it is culturally taboo." I don't care how (inappropriately) literally anyone wants to read that, the obvious point of the taboo is to not admit fear. If you want to say *pagh latlh be' ghop wIbamvIp,* you're not admitting fear; you're denying fear. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
It’s certainly “culturally taboo” among the warrior caste, but whether that’s true of the general Klingon population– let alone non-Klingon subjects of the Empire - is unknown. If the {-vIp} suffix is particularly shunned, there are alternatives: {Haj} dread, {ghIj} scare, {lIm} panic, etc. FYI there’s an interesting parallel in the _Encyclopedia of Fictional and Fantastic Languages_ by Tim Conley & Stephen Cain (2006): The junk-dealing Jawas speak Jawaese, a language with … origins in Zulu …. [Ben Burtt, George Lucas's sound designer] recalls that he asked Zulu speakers to tell stories in different emotional registers for his recordings, but one speaker “balked” when asked to speak fearfully: “He told me that a warrior such as himself would not know any fear, so certainly he could not express it. I guess that's why the Jawas, despite their size, became so fearless.” See Burtt's _Star Wars Galactic Phrase Book and Travel Guide_, (New York: 2001; p. 136). __Voragh ___________________________________________________________________ From: SuStel On 6/2/2021 10:54 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote: (I can't find the words to describe how much I don't give a jay' about the "not using {-vIp} with first-person prefix unless there's a {-be'}" rule). Well, think about it. The taboo doesn't say "don't use -vIp with a first-person prefix unless there's a -be' on it." The rule actually states, "This suffix is rarely used with a prefix meaning I or we. Though it is grammatically correct, it is culturally taboo." I don't care how (inappropriately) literally anyone wants to read that, the obvious point of the taboo is to not admit fear. If you want to say pagh latlh be' ghop wIbamvIp, you're not admitting fear; you're denying fear.
SuStel:
If you want to say pagh latlh be' ghop wIbamvIp, you're not admitting fear; you're denying fear.
Interesting; I hadn't thought of this approach. voragh:
It’s certainly “culturally taboo” among the warrior caste, but whether that’s true of the general Klingon population– let alone non-Klingon subjects of the Empire - is unknown.
maj! This is all the justification I'll ever need.. Anyways, I'd like to discuss two things with regards to the original translation. en translation:
of goddesses most excellent far jIH: SoH povqu' law' Hoch povqu' puS
In case the {-qu'} on the {pov} seems strange, I chose to use it as a result of the Ca'Non paq'batlh sentence of: {SoH rallaw' law' Hoch rallaw' puS}. The en translation doesn't say "of goddesses most excellent"; it says "most excellent far". So, if I just wrote the law'/puS construction without the {-qu'} on the {pov}, I think that the "far" wouldn't be expressed. en translation:
and thou, O Queen wilt know who is the cause of thine anger jIH: 'ej SoH'e', 'o che'wI', QeHlIj qaSmoHpu'bogh nuv Dangu'
The {SoH'e'} isn't intended as "as for you"; it's intended with it's exclusivity role: "of everyone it is *you* Hera, who will identify the cause of your anger". Of course, I may be wrong on everything I wrote so far, since -qeylIS knows- in the brain factory someone forgot to install the "ability to understand grammar circuit" in my brain. ~ Dana'an I've never read the paq'batlh I don't intend to ever read the paq'batlh
On 6/3/2021 6:50 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
en translation:
of goddesses most excellent far jIH: SoH povqu' law' Hoch povqu' puS In case the {-qu'} on the {pov} seems strange, I chose to use it as a result of the Ca'Non paq'batlh sentence of: {SoH rallaw' law' Hoch rallaw' puS}.
The en translation doesn't say "of goddesses most excellent"; it says "most excellent far". So, if I just wrote the law'/puS construction without the {-qu'} on the {pov}, I think that the "far" wouldn't be expressed.
I've got no problem with it. It seems well within the known flexibility of *law'/puS.*
en translation:
and thou, O Queen wilt know who is the cause of thine anger jIH: 'ej SoH'e', 'o che'wI', QeHlIj qaSmoHpu'bogh nuv Dangu' The {SoH'e'} isn't intended as "as for you"; it's intended with it's exclusivity role: "of everyone it is *you* Hera, who will identify the cause of your anger".
The structure of the English sentence is to emphasize the /thou/ by following it with a parenthetical term of direct address. But Klingon expresses this kind of emphasis with *-'e',* not by reordering sentences. I'd translate this line like so: *QeHlIj qaSmoHpu'bogh nuv Dangu' SoH'e', 'o che'wI'. */YOU (out of everyone) will identify the person who has caused your anger, o ruler./ I don't know for sure that focus is really called for here; I don't get an "out of everyone" feeling from the English. But if you want one, that's how I'd do it. **
I've never read the paq'batlh I don't intend to ever read the paq'batlh
The story is meh. The grammar is interesting. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (3)
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mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel