'eSpanya' 'ewrop je (Beginner's text and questions)
qen jIjatlhpu’ DoyIchlan Dabbogh 'eSpanya'ngan jIH. DaH loQ SepwIj vIrIch vIneH. 'ewrop DIvI' loch 'eSpanya', qaStaHvIS DIS 1986 lochchoHpu'. SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam, vurchoHlaHpu' 'eSpanya'. wa' nugh 'oH 'ewrop'e', 'ach nugh law' yugh. Sepmey tInqu' nganpu'vaD chaq jum ngoDvam. Do'Ha' 'ev chan 'ev mIp law' tIng chan tIng mIp puS. vummeH, ghu'vammo' 'ev chan 'ev lujaH nuv law'. ro' mojchugh ghIt, qabqu' 'ev chan 'ev muD. ghIQmeH, tIng chan tIng lujaH nuv law'. nuvvamvaD roD Daj je tIng chan tIng yIn. boqyIn rur ghu'vam. As usual, I would appreciate any help / correction in order to improve my Klingon. I also have three questions: 1. With *'ewrop DIvI' loch 'eSpanya', qaStaHvIS DIS 1986 lochchoHpu'* I tried to get the meaning of *since*. Is there another way to say it (*since a point in the past till now*)? 2. I was not sure if *loch* only works for mathematics and *yugh* only for chemistry. If it is so, how could I say *be a part / member of* and *consist of* in Klingon? 3. With *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam* I mean *this situation IS very good for my country*. But if I want to say that the fact of becoming a member of the European Union WAS very good for my country, would something like *QaQpu'qu' ngoDvam* work? I'm actually thinking of the Spanish form *fue* (perfective), which I would use here instead of *era* (imperfective), but I don't know if this works in Klingon similarly. Thank you!
Hi Luis, I did not go much checking your grammar, but this kind of text would be very useful for the "Klingon Encyclopdia", a project I extracted from the former Klingon Wikipedia. Unfortunately, there are no editors on that wiki, which was one of the reasons why it was removed from Wikipedia. But anyway: Have a look, and just add your description of Spain in there. It's a good practice. https://klingon.fandom.com/wiki/DoyIchlan https://klingon.fandom.com/wiki/vIraS -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com
On 5/26/2021 10:59 AM, luis.chaparro@web.de wrote:
qen jIjatlhpu’ DoyIchlan Dabbogh 'eSpanya'ngan jIH. DaH loQ SepwIj vIrIch vIneH.
'ewrop DIvI' loch 'eSpanya', qaStaHvIS DIS 1986 lochchoHpu'. SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam, vurchoHlaHpu' 'eSpanya'.
wa' nugh 'oH 'ewrop'e', 'ach nugh law' yugh. Sepmey tInqu' nganpu'vaD chaq jum ngoDvam. Do'Ha' 'ev chan 'ev mIp law' tIng chan tIng mIp puS. vummeH, ghu'vammo' 'ev chan 'ev lujaH nuv law'. ro' mojchugh ghIt, qabqu' 'ev chan 'ev muD. ghIQmeH, tIng chan tIng lujaH nuv law'. nuvvamvaD roD Daj je tIng chan tIng yIn. boqyIn rur ghu'vam.
As usual, I would appreciate any help / correction in order to improve my Klingon. I also have three questions:
1. With *'ewrop DIvI' loch 'eSpanya', qaStaHvIS DIS 1986 lochchoHpu'* I tried to get the meaning of *since*. Is there another way to say it (*since a point in the past till now*)?
This is pretty much how I'd do it. You don't need the *qaStaHvIS,* though: a time expression is enough to say that something happened at a particular time: *DIS 1986 lochchoHpu'*/it became a constituent in the year 1986./ You could shorten this even more if you want: *DIS 1986 'ewrop DIvI' lochchoHpu' 'eSpanya' */Spain became a constituent of the European Union in the year 1986./ If you want to emphasize that it is still a member, you could say *DIS 1986 'ewrop DIvI' lochchoHpu' 'eSpanya'; DaHjaj lochtaH. *//Spain became a constituent of the European Union in the year 1986; it remains a constituent today. //
2. I was not sure if *loch* only works for mathematics and *yugh* only for chemistry. If it is so, how could I say *be a part / member of* and *consist of* in Klingon?
I think *loch* works fine here. We are told that *loch* is used in mathematics, but we aren't told that *loch* is /only/ used in mathematics.
3. With *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam* I mean *this situation IS very good for my country*. But if I want to say that the fact of becoming a member of the European Union WAS very good for my country, would something like *QaQpu'qu' ngoDvam* work? I'm actually thinking of the Spanish form *fue* (perfective), which I would use here instead of *era* (imperfective), but I don't know if this works in Klingon similarly.
If you want to talk about states, use *ghu'.* If you want to talk about events, use *wanI'.* If you want to talk about general facts, use *ngoD.* But don't overuse them: they're not pronouns. So if you want to say that Spain's member status is good, say *QaQ ghu'*/the situation is good./ If you want to say Spain's joining was good, say *QaQ wanI'.* You can also be more specific, saying things like *QaQ muvpu'ghach*/having joined was good/ or *QaQ lochchoHghach*/becoming a member was good./ ** Don't use perfective here: the joining being good hasn't ended. The joining has, but the being good hasn't. You can look back on the joining and still see that it was good. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I agree with SuStel that there’s no reason to assume that {loch} “be a fraction of, make up a portion of, constitute part of” is restricted to math. Remember that both {chen} “build up, take form, take shape” and {boq} “ally with, form an alliance with“ are also used (along with various suffixes) in math expressions as well as more generally. I’d just like to suggest some other vocabulary (and examples) WRT groups and members thereof available to play with: jeS participate (v) (Lieven < MO, 10/19/2016 [qepHom 2016]): The verb {jeS} (participate) does not take an object. It generally is in a phrase following a phrase saying what the subject of {jeS} is participating in. All of the following can be translated as “I participate in the qepHom”, though the literal meaning of each is distinct: qaStaHvIS qepHom jIjeS "While the qepHom is happening, I participate" qaS qepHom ’ej jIjeS "The qepHom is happening, and I participate" qaS qepHom vaj jIjeS "The qepHom is happening, so I participate" laS veghaS HIltonDaq «Hov leng: yIjeSchu'» qaSchoHmo', bIlopqu'meH HIlton yIghoS Come celebrate the grand opening of Star Trek: The Experience at the Las Vegas Hilton. STX tera' vatlh DIS poH cha'maH loS bIyIn jeSlaHpa' Hoch Be the first to journey to the 24th century. STX yejvamvaD jeSmeH DIb Dabajbe'pu'. You have not earned a seat at this council. (DSC/Qov "Battle At the Binary Stars" NON-CANON) muv join (v) Qang QanmeH yan 'ISletlh Damuv 'e' wIvlu'. You are chosen to serve on the Yan-Isleth and protect the chancellor. MKE may' DaQap, vaj betleH 'obe' Damuv 'e' Daqotlh Win battle and earn entrance into the Order of the Bat'leth. MKE Qo'noS tuqmey muvchuqmoH qeylIS Kahless united the tribes of Kronos (PB) batlh maHeghbej 'ej yo' qIjDaq vavpu'ma' DImuv Then we die with honor and join our fathers in the Black Fleet... (Anthem) jolbogh ghom wa'DIch DamuvlaHmeH De' DaneHchugh, Se'vam yIjIHtaH Stay tuned for information on how you can be among the first to beam aboard! STX chuD people, kin, member of the same group or tribe or clan (n) Qob lIb bam SoH chuDlI' je You and your people are in danger. STID DarItmo' vangbej'a' chuDma'? Can you be sure our brothers and sisters will answer your call? (DSC "The Vulcan Hello" NON-CANON) vInDa' compatriot, community member, cohort, fellow citizen (n) 'ej Dojmey wID - vInDa'ma' peq. He has killed many of our people. STID --Voragh _________________________________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> On Behalf Of SuStel On 5/26/2021 10:59 AM, luis.chaparro@web.de<mailto:luis.chaparro@web.de> wrote: qen jIjatlhpu’ DoyIchlan Dabbogh 'eSpanya'ngan jIH. DaH loQ SepwIj vIrIch vIneH. 'ewrop DIvI' loch 'eSpanya', qaStaHvIS DIS 1986 lochchoHpu'. SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam, vurchoHlaHpu' 'eSpanya'. wa' nugh 'oH 'ewrop'e', 'ach nugh law' yugh. Sepmey tInqu' nganpu'vaD chaq jum ngoDvam. Do'Ha' 'ev chan 'ev mIp law' tIng chan tIng mIp puS. vummeH, ghu'vammo' 'ev chan 'ev lujaH nuv law'. ro' mojchugh ghIt, qabqu' 'ev chan 'ev muD. ghIQmeH, tIng chan tIng lujaH nuv law'. nuvvamvaD roD Daj je tIng chan tIng yIn. boqyIn rur ghu'vam. As usual, I would appreciate any help / correction in order to improve my Klingon. I also have three questions: 1. With *'ewrop DIvI' loch 'eSpanya', qaStaHvIS DIS 1986 lochchoHpu'* I tried to get the meaning of *since*. Is there another way to say it (*since a point in the past till now*)? This is pretty much how I'd do it. You don't need the qaStaHvIS, though: a time expression is enough to say that something happened at a particular time: DIS 1986 lochchoHpu' it became a constituent in the year 1986. You could shorten this even more if you want: DIS 1986 'ewrop DIvI' lochchoHpu' 'eSpanya' Spain became a constituent of the European Union in the year 1986. If you want to emphasize that it is still a member, you could say DIS 1986 'ewrop DIvI' lochchoHpu' 'eSpanya'; DaHjaj lochtaH. Spain became a constituent of the European Union in the year 1986; it remains a constituent today. 2. I was not sure if *loch* only works for mathematics and *yugh* only for chemistry. If it is so, how could I say *be a part / member of* and *consist of* in Klingon? I think loch works fine here. We are told that loch is used in mathematics, but we aren't told that loch is only used in mathematics.
SuStel:
1. With *'ewrop DIvI' loch 'eSpanya', qaStaHvIS DIS 1986 lochchoHpu'* I tried to get the meaning of *since*. Is there another way to say it (*since a point in the past >>till now*)? This is pretty much how I'd do it. You don't need the qaStaHvIS, though: a time expression is enough to say that something happened at a particular time: DIS 1986 >lochchoHpu' it became a constituent in the year 1986.
Thank you again for your help, SuStel! Your posts, also on the Duolingo Forum, are a great help for beginners!
You could shorten this even more if you want: DIS 1986 'ewrop DIvI' lochchoHpu' 'eSpanya' Spain became a constituent of the European Union in the year 1986.
This was my first attempt, but then I was afraid it could be ambiguous (maybe the readers think Spain is no longer a member and they understand the *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam* as imperfective past). Although... maybe it was a little overly cautious, since context (e.g., the fact that I don't make a contrast between Spain being a member in the past and not being a member in the present) should make it clear. Unfortunately, I don't feel confident enough in Klingon yet to assess that accurately.
2. I was not sure if *loch* only works for mathematics and *yugh* only for chemistry. If it is so, how could I say *be a part / member of* and *consist of* in >>Klingon? I think loch works fine here. We are told that loch is used in mathematics, but we aren't told that loch is only used in mathematics.
I assume the same goes for *yugh*, right?
3. With *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam* I mean *this situation IS very good for my country*. But if I want to say that the fact of becoming a member of the European >>Union WAS very good for my country, would something like *QaQpu'qu' ngoDvam* work? I'm actually thinking of the Spanish form *fue* (perfective), which I would use >>here instead of *era* (imperfective), but I don't know if this works in Klingon similarly. If you want to talk about states, use ghu'. If you want to talk about events, use wanI'. If you want to talk about general facts, use ngoD. But don't overuse them: >they're not pronouns.
Thank you for the explanation. Actually, I didn't like the fact that I was using so much these words, but I was a bit overwhelmed trying to express my ideas in Klingon. Now I think I could have used some *vaj*, *-ghach* or other more specific words.
So if you want to say that Spain's member status is good, say QaQ ghu' the situation is good. If you want to say Spain's joining was good, say QaQ wanI'. You can >>also be more specific, saying things like QaQ muvpu'ghach having joined was good or QaQ lochchoHghach becoming a member was good. Don't use perfective here: the joining being good hasn't ended. The joining has, but the being good hasn't. You can look back on the joining and still see that it >>was good.
Sorry, I didn't explain my question well. Let's say I want to express the joining was at that point in the past good (regardless of its still being good or not) because at that point in the past it solved a specific problem of Spain, and I speak about this problem. I'm only talking about the being good of this event in order to solve that problem in the past. Or to make it clearer: Let's say we speak about the UK. Is *QaQpu'qu'* right in this context? (Or should it be *QaQqu'pu'*?). Thank you!
On 5/27/2021 7:21 AM, luis.chaparro@web.de wrote:
SuStel:
You could shorten this even more if you want: DIS 1986 'ewrop DIvI' lochchoHpu' 'eSpanya' Spain became a constituent of the European Union in the year 1986. This was my first attempt, but then I was afraid it could be ambiguous (maybe the readers think Spain is no longer a member and they understand the *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam* as imperfective past). Although... maybe it was a little overly cautious, since context (e.g., the fact that I don't make a contrast between Spain being a member in the past and not being a member in the present) should make it clear. Unfortunately, I don't feel confident enough in Klingon yet to assess that accurately.
Klingon does not have a distinct imperfective. *lochchoHpu'* means *loch* /be a member of,/ *-choH*/change state (from not a member to a member)/ and *-pu'*/the action (of changing state) is completed./ Klingon also doesn't mark verbs for tense, so *lochchoHpu'* might be equally true of the past or future: /it became a constituent of; it will have become a constituent of./ Your time expression *(DIS 1986)* tells you which it is.
2. I was not sure if *loch* only works for mathematics and *yugh* only for chemistry. If it is so, how could I say *be a part / member of* and *consist of* in >>Klingon? I think loch works fine here. We are told that loch is used in mathematics, but we aren't told that loch is only used in mathematics. I assume the same goes for *yugh*, right?
Yes, with regards to chemistry. Specifically, Marc Okrand has used *yughmoH* to refer to computerized information filtering.
So if you want to say that Spain's member status is good, say QaQ ghu' the situation is good. If you want to say Spain's joining was good, say QaQ wanI'. You can >>also be more specific, saying things like QaQ muvpu'ghach having joined was good or QaQ lochchoHghach becoming a member was good. Don't use perfective here: the joining being good hasn't ended. The joining has, but the being good hasn't. You can look back on the joining and still see that it >>was good. Sorry, I didn't explain my question well. Let's say I want to express the joining was at that point in the past good (regardless of its still being good or not) because at that point in the past it solved a specific problem of Spain, and I speak about this problem. I'm only talking about the being good of this event in order to solve that problem in the past. Or to make it clearer: Let's say we speak about the UK. Is *QaQpu'qu'* right in this context? (Or should it be *QaQqu'pu'*?). Thank you!
Saying *QaQ lochchoHghach*///The joining was good/ doesn't imply that membership continues to be good. It only refers to the time of the change of state, the *-choH.* You can be more specific with a time expression. For instance, *'ewrop DIvI' muvpu'DI' 'eSpanya', QaQ ghu'*/As soon as Spain had joined the European Union, the situation was good./ This doesn't say anything about the situation now. You will usually want to avoid perfective markers on verbs expressing qualities. They're almost never what you're really trying to express. They do not mean "in the past," and they do not even necessarily mean "no longer true." *QaQpu'* means you're taking the viewpoint of looking back on something, and saying its goodness is completed. Usually, what you're really trying to say is that at a certain time, something was good. That requires no perfective. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
yugh include, consist of, be composed of (v) (qepHom 2015) cha’ bIQSIp HeySelmey, wa’ yInSIp HeySel je yugh bIQ ’o’rIS. The water molecule consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. (Lieven, OK'd by Okrand at qepHom 2015) QongtaHvIS HeghDI' SuvwI', 'oynot, Hom je neH yugh. A warrior who dies in his sleep is no more than flesh and bone. (DSC/Qov "Battle At the Binary Stars" NON-CANON) yughmoH include, cause to be included (v) (De'vID, from Okrand, 2/17/2018): To filter (in this sense) is {yughmoH} “include” (that is, “cause to be included”). So {X neH yughmoH} “filter for X only, include X only". --Voragh ________________________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> On Behalf Of SuStel On 5/27/2021 7:21 AM, luis.chaparro@web.de<mailto:luis.chaparro@web.de> wrote: 2. I was not sure if *loch* only works for mathematics and *yugh* only for chemistry. If it is so, how could I say *be a part / member of* and *consist of* in >>Klingon? I think loch works fine here. We are told that loch is used in mathematics, but we aren't told that loch is only used in mathematics. I assume the same goes for *yugh*, right? Yes, with regards to chemistry. Specifically, Marc Okrand has used yughmoH to refer to computerized information filtering. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/trimboli.name__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!tne1PGptBp9vq0FsikslK7vcaL_DldjFgKGgiPXWO7hGuPumGXk6Xea-Io0jUL76Xus$>
SuStel:
This was my first attempt, but then I was afraid it could be ambiguous (maybe the readers think Spain is no longer a member and they understand the *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam* as imperfective past). Although... maybe it was a little overly cautious, since context (e.g., the fact that I don't make a contrast between Spain being a member in the past and not being a member in the present) should make it clear. Unfortunately, I don't feel confident enough in Klingon yet to assess that accurately. Klingon does not have a distinct imperfective. lochchoHpu' means loch be a member of, -choH change state (from not a member to a member) and -pu' the action (of changing state) is completed. Klingon also doesn't mark verbs for tense, so lochchoHpu' might be equally true of the past or future: it became a constituent of; it will have become a constituent of. Your time expression (DIS 1986) tells you which it is.
I was actually referring to *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam*. I thought this sentence (*QaQqu'*) could be understood as imperfective if I don't say that Spain is still a member.
You will usually want to avoid perfective markers on verbs expressing qualities. They're almost never what you're really trying to express. They do not mean "in the past," and they do not even necessarily mean "no longer true." QaQpu' means you're taking the viewpoint of looking back on something, and saying its goodness is completed. Usually, what you're really trying to say is that at a certain time, something was good. That requires no perfective.
I understand that Klingon doesn't mark verbs for tense, but I think my Spanish mind is making me problems here, since we have (unlike English) an imperfective past tense, so I can say in Spanish both *Esta situación era buena* (*This situation was good*, imperfective) and *Esta situación fue buena* (*This situation was good*, perfective), or *Estaba en la playa* (*I was on the beach*, imperfective) and "*Estuve en la playa* (*I was on the beach*, perfective), depending on what I'm trying to express.
Saying QaQ lochchoHghach The joining was good doesn't imply that membership continues to be good. It only refers to the time of the change of state, the -choH. You can be more specific with a time expression. For instance, 'ewrop DIvI' muvpu'DI' 'eSpanya', QaQ ghu' As soon as Spain had joined the European Union, the situation was good. This doesn't say anything about the situation now.
But *QaQ lochchoHghach* can actually mean *The joining is / was (imperfective) / will be good*, right?
On 5/27/2021 10:27 AM, luis.chaparro@web.de wrote:
SuStel:
This was my first attempt, but then I was afraid it could be ambiguous (maybe the readers think Spain is no longer a member and they understand the *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam* as imperfective past). Although... maybe it was a little overly cautious, since context (e.g., the fact that I don't make a contrast between Spain being a member in the past and not being a member in the present) should make it clear. Unfortunately, I don't feel confident enough in Klingon yet to assess that accurately. Klingon does not have a distinct imperfective. lochchoHpu' means loch be a member of, -choH change state (from not a member to a member) and -pu' the action (of changing state) is completed. Klingon also doesn't mark verbs for tense, so lochchoHpu' might be equally true of the past or future: it became a constituent of; it will have become a constituent of. Your time expression (DIS 1986) tells you which it is. I was actually referring to *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam*. I thought this sentence (*QaQqu'*) could be understood as imperfective if I don't say that Spain is still a member.
Yes, you could characterize it as imperfective, whether or not you say Spain is still a member. The situation (of being a member, whenever that was, is, or will be) equals good.
Saying QaQ lochchoHghach The joining was good doesn't imply that membership continues to be good. It only refers to the time of the change of state, the -choH. You can be more specific with a time expression. For instance, 'ewrop DIvI' muvpu'DI' 'eSpanya', QaQ ghu' As soon as Spain had joined the European Union, the situation was good. This doesn't say anything about the situation now.
But *QaQ lochchoHghach* can actually mean *The joining is / was (imperfective) / will be good*, right?
Yes, that's exactly how to characterize it. And *QaQpu' lochchoHghach* would be /The joining was (perfective)/will have been good./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
I was actually referring to *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam*. I thought this sentence (*QaQqu'*) could be understood as imperfective if I don't say that Spain is still a member.
Yes, you could characterize it as imperfective, whether or not you say Spain is still a member. The situation (of being a member, whenever that was, is, or will be) equals good.
Sorry, but I forgot to write the word *past* in my sentence. I actually wanted to say: I thought this sentence (*QaQqu'*) could be understood as imperfective *past* if I don't say that Spain is still a member (since the reader could believe Spain is no longer a member and thus understand the being good as imperfective past, instead of present). However, if I don't only say Spain became a member in 1986, but I add (to clarify) that it's still a member now (*DaHjaj lochtaH*), then the reader will likely interpret *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam* as present and not (imperfective) past. Am I right or am I messing it up?
On 5/27/2021 4:32 PM, luis.chaparro@web.de wrote:
Sorry, but I forgot to write the word*past* in my sentence. I actually wanted to say: I thought this sentence (*QaQqu'*) could be understood as imperfective *past* if I don't say that Spain is still a member (since the reader could believe Spain is no longer a member and thus understand the being good as imperfective past, instead of present). However, if I don't only say Spain became a member in 1986, but I add (to clarify) that it's still a member now (*DaHjaj lochtaH*), then the reader will likely interpret *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam* as present and not (imperfective) past. Am I right or am I messing it up?
Whether something is interpreted as past, present, or future entirely depends on context, not what suffixes you use. If I say *DaHjaj lochtaH 'eSpanya',* then *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu',* since we know that *ghu'* is referring to a situation that is still in effect, we'll know you mean that the situation that is still in effect is very good for your country. If, on the other hand, I said something like *'ewrop DIvI' muvpu'DI' 'eSpanya', SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu',* it's clear that the good situation we're talking about is the one occurring just after Spain had joined the EU, and so it being good for your country was true at that time. It's all to do with context. The same sentence could mean different things in different contexts. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (4)
-
Lieven L. Litaer -
luis.chaparro＠web.de -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel