prefix trick formal or informal
Does it make sense to wonder whether the prefix trick is to be used in less formal occasions, than the "full form" of the sentence? For example, in a religious ceremony comes a point where one needs to say to the other "and now I give you the knife". There are two options: taj qanob SoHvaD taj vInob Is the prefix trick version less formal than the other? -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
While I think you have asked a great question, I think it is SO great that it deserves to be TWO questions: 1. Is the prefix trick informal, or is it generally accepted in formal contexts. 2. What are the conventions of formality of religious ceremonies? The second question probably needs different answers for different religions, assuming the Klingon Empire has more than one of them. So far, we are only exposed to one Klingon mythology/religion. Then again, outsiders studying American mythology/religion might think we are a Christian nation with only one religion, ignoring agnosticism, atheism, or the wide spectrum of religions brought to this country by the full scope of immigrants, and those already here among the Indigenous Peoples before the coerced introduction of Christianity and the mostly successful obliteration of native culture and beliefs. pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:05 AM, D qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Does it make sense to wonder whether the prefix trick is to be used in less formal occasions, than the "full form" of the sentence?
For example, in a religious ceremony comes a point where one needs to say to the other "and now I give you the knife".
There are two options:
taj qanob SoHvaD taj vInob
Is the prefix trick version less formal than the other?
-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ <https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/> Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 7/1/2022 8:05 AM, D qunen'oS wrote:
Is the prefix trick version less formal than the other?
I see no evidence that the prefix trick is informal in any way. It appears to just be shortening, not informality. In the post in which Okrand explains it, he just says things like "may be used" and "is interpreted as." -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Good answer to the question. Meanwhile, the example brings up the issue of religious speech. Religions don’t necessarily follow the lines of “anything acceptable by the general public as formal works in religious contexts”. The second implication of the question requires actual canon within the context of religious speech. “Love thy neighbor” is not formal speech. It’s religious speech. “Thou shalt not kill” is not formal speech. It is religious speech. It may have been formal speech when translated into the language of the first generally distributed translation of the Bible, but now, it is spoken only in religious context. Legal context is formal, but it wouldn’t use those words. Academics use formal speech, though some of that is jargon, as is some legal speech, etc. Newscasters use formal speech. Journalists use formal speech. Teachers use and teach formal speech. Meanwhile, informal speech similarly has many dialects, and slang is a form of jargon, though perhaps it is understood by a larger group of people. pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:56 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 7/1/2022 8:05 AM, D qunen'oS wrote:
Is the prefix trick version less formal than the other?
I see no evidence that the prefix trick is informal in any way. It appears to just be shortening, not informality. In the post in which Okrand explains it, he just says things like "may be used" and "is interpreted as."
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 7/1/2022 9:09 AM, Will Martin wrote:
Good answer to the question. Meanwhile, the example brings up the issue of religious speech.
How does religion have anything to do with this?
“Love thy neighbor” is not formal speech. It’s religious speech. “Thou shalt not kill” is not formal speech. It is religious speech.
It's the style specifically of the King James Bible. If you read a different translation of the bible, you get different styles.
It may have been formal speech when translated into the language of the first generally distributed translation of the Bible, but now, it is spoken only in religious context.
It was stylized when it was translated. According to Wikipedia, because the English language was undergoing great change at the time it was translated, the panel of translators deliberately "avoided contemporary idioms, tending instead toward forms that were already slightly archaic." It uses /thou/thee/ and /ye/you/ as singular and plural pronouns, but by this time /you /was usually the singular used. The King James Bible wasn't formal when it was published, it was /stilted./ If you have a religion and you don't happen to refer to the KJB, you probably don't speak like this in a religious context. I don't think the King James Bible was the first generally distributed translation of the bible. I might guess that the Gutenberg bible was, which was a Latin Vulgate edition, not English. I doubt the KJB was even the first widely distributed English translation.
Legal context is formal, but it wouldn’t use those words. Academics use formal speech, though some of that is jargon, as is some legal speech, etc. Newscasters use formal speech. Journalists use formal speech. Teachers use and teach formal speech.
There are levels of formality. An academic paper is typically more formal than a newscast, which is typically more formal than the average high school English class.
Meanwhile, informal speech similarly has many dialects, and slang is a form of jargon, though perhaps it is understood by a larger group of people.
You'll need to first establish that the prefix trick is specific to some level of formality or informality before you start trying to identify which it belongs to. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri., Jul. 1, 2022, 14:05 D qunen'oS, <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Does it make sense to wonder whether the prefix trick is to be used in less formal occasions, than the "full form" of the sentence?
For example, in a religious ceremony comes a point where one needs to say to the other "and now I give you the knife".
{tIqwIj Sa'angnIS} is a sacred phrase said during the Rite of Ascension, which symbolises the attainment of a certain spiritual level. I think it qualifies as a "religious ceremony". See TKW p.203. -- De'vID
Perfect. That’s exactly what I wanted. qatlho’. SuStel seems to be under the impression that we disagreed somehow. I completely agree with everything he said. My point is that the question was about formal/informal, and as SuStel clearly stated, the prefix trick is not informal, but the example given wasn’t merely one where the boundary between formal and informal tells you anything meaningful. Religious ceremony is a specific, additionally restrictive subset of “formal”, frequently exclusive of what is otherwise acceptable formal speech. If you use acceptable, formal academic or formal legal speech in a religious ceremony, you may believe that you have satisfied religious speech and find yourself quite mistaken. If you want to know if something is acceptable religious speech, you need to examine canon examples of religious speech, independent of whether or not your example satisfies what is otherwise acceptable formal speech. Formal speech could be as simple as what a child would say to his respected grandfather, as contrasted to what he’d say to a playmate. pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Jul 1, 2022, at 9:39 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri., Jul. 1, 2022, 14:05 D qunen'oS, <mihkoun@gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: Does it make sense to wonder whether the prefix trick is to be used in less formal occasions, than the "full form" of the sentence?
For example, in a religious ceremony comes a point where one needs to say to the other "and now I give you the knife".
{tIqwIj Sa'angnIS} is a sacred phrase said during the Rite of Ascension, which symbolises the attainment of a certain spiritual level. I think it qualifies as a "religious ceremony". See TKW p.203.
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (4)
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D qunen'oS -
De'vID -
SuStel -
Will Martin