I’ve read from several sources about the difficulty of translating ANY ancient Greek text into ANY other language because of the many subtle emotional nuances that are simply not represented by other languages. This brings me to the psycholinguistic concept that language shapes one's thoughts (and feelings) as one uses language to express them. Languages tend to evolve to express the ideas and feelings that a people find a need to express through sufficient repetition to develop the vocabulary and grammar to express. You can’t teach the number 5,384 to a person whose language has only the number words for 1, 2, 3, many. This is like that. Combining these, I’d like to suggest that it might be impossible to create a perfect translation because Klingons, whose feelings are by necessity shaped by their language, may simply fail to have the feelings that someone translating an ancient Greek passage seeks to translate. Those subtle feelings may simply be too alien for a Klingon to understand. It’s not just that the words aren’t there. The feelings and the ideas aren’t there. This leaves you with the option that you try to prioritize the subtleties that you wish to express working from the emotional vocabulary of the Klingon language, and perhaps decide between the subtleties that Klingon offers that might have been missing in the original Greek relating to some of the Klingon affixes that get less emphasis in Greek. A Klingon will never understand all that you wish to express, but he, she, or they might be able to understand the most important point of the passage, so long as that point fits within the emotional expressions his, her, or their language has evolved to hold within its limited boundaries. charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)

On Mar 7, 2021, at 8:46 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

SuStel:

...

Since you're signing with the quote in Greek, the Klingon translation isn't too important to get right, but I thought I'd comment anyway.

I'm glad you took the time to share your thoughts; I always look forward to reading your comments.

SuStel:

...

This seems quite clearly an optative sentence. -jaj would be good here. I also interpret woe unto you to mean a wish that you experience sorrows, not necessarily agony (which could metaphorically imply sorrows, but it isn't restricted to that). So instead of lIloS bep agonies await you, I would say Subepjaj may you suffer.

Translating the "woe unto you", has been quite a pain for me.

I can *feel* the old Greek word used in the original text, and I can understand the modern Greek word used in the official translation.

But (and here's where things get weird), the old Greek word doesn't translate 100% in modern Greek, and none of these two words (old and modern Greek) can be 100% translated in English, let alone Klingon.

Go figure..

So I chose the {lIloS bep} because of the context of that sentence..

..Which is that Jesus states the fact that the Scribes and Pharisees will eventually experience the agony of those who will not be saved.

SuStel:

...

QaqwI'pu' falsely honorable ones strikes me as slightly off the mark for hypocrites (it's concerned with honor instead of truth), but I can't think of anything better.

Yes, I agree with you 100%. Initially I thought of using {tojwI'pu'} but I didn't *feel* it expressing the "hypocrites". Then I thought of using one of the verbs {lIl}/{ghet}, but none of these verbs are anywhere even close with the context of "hypocrisy" since they're used for role-playing.

So, for lack of a better alternative, I went with the {QaqwI'pu'}, thinking that the original scribes/pharisees acted the way they did with their main concern being to receive honor they didn't deserve.

But yes, you're right; I too *feel* that the {QaqwI'pu'} isn't the most accurate word for "hypocrites".

~ Dana'an woe unto you scribes and pharisees hypocrites _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

On 3/7/2021 6:19 PM, Will Martin wrote:

I’ve read from several sources about the difficulty of translating ANY ancient Greek text into ANY other language because of the many subtle emotional nuances that are simply not represented by other languages.

This brings me to the psycholinguistic concept that language shapes one's thoughts (and feelings) as one uses language to express them. Languages tend to evolve to express the ideas and feelings that a people find a need to express through sufficient repetition to develop the vocabulary and grammar to express.

You can’t teach the number 5,384 to a person whose language has only the number words for 1, 2, 3, many. This is like that.

Combining these, I’d like to suggest that it might be impossible to create a perfect translation because Klingons, whose feelings are by necessity shaped by their language, may simply fail to have the feelings that someone translating an ancient Greek passage seeks to translate. Those subtle feelings may simply be too alien for a Klingon to understand.

It’s not just that the words aren’t there. The feelings and the ideas aren’t there.

I completely reject the idea that people of different languages have different emotions shaped by their languages. Different paradigms for approaching practical problems, yes. Different levels of sophistication in expressing those emotions, yes. But the ancient Greeks did not have inherently more subtle feelings than modern people, no matter how emotionally nuanced their language. You might have more latitude to claim this for a fictional, alien race, but there's no evidence whatsoever that Klingons' emotions are different than ours. Your number analogy is wrong. Speaking a language that doesn't have words for numbers into the thousands doesn't mean you don't have a concept of numbers that high. It just means you don't have the tools to express that number, or that your tools are less sophisticated. Instead of "I saw five thousand, three hundred eighty-four soldiers," you might say "I saw as many soldiers as there are leaves on this tree." Expressing emotion is expressing something internal to yourself. Expressing numbers is expressing something external to yourself. The latter requires special technology. A person whose language doesn't have any way to express negative numbers can still comprehend "I have six sheep, but I owe you seven sheep, so even if I give you all my sheep, the next sheep I get will also go to you."

This leaves you with the option that you try to prioritize the subtleties that you wish to express working from the emotional vocabulary of the Klingon language, and perhaps decide between the subtleties that Klingon offers that might have been missing in the original Greek relating to some of the Klingon affixes that get less emphasis in Greek.

This is true of ALL translation. There's nothing special about ancient Greek or Klingon here. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name