recently, we said that we can write {may' Suv} and {may' ghob} for "to fight a battle". two questions: if we want to say "fight a war", are the {noH Suv} and {noH ghob} acceptable ? and how do we say "win a war/battle" and "lose a war/battle" ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On Dec 30, 2016 12:52, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote: recently, we said that we can write {may' Suv} and {may' ghob} for "to fight a battle". two questions: if we want to say "fight a war", are the {noH Suv} and {noH ghob} acceptable ? and how do we say "win a war/battle" and "lose a war/battle" ? {noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay chavbe'lu' 'ej wo' choqmeH may' DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu'.} "Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat." -- TKW p.211 -- De'vID
DevID:
{noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay chavbe'lu' 'ej wo' choqmeH may' DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu'.}
the {noH QapmeH} is indeed pretty straightforward for "to win a war", but does the {lujbe'lu'} mean that we can say {noH lujlu'} for {someone lost the war} ? also, are the {noH Suv} and {noH ghob} acceptable, for "to fight a war" ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 30 Dec 2016 2:26 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 30, 2016 12:52, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
recently, we said that we can write {may' Suv} and {may' ghob} for "to fight a battle".
two questions:
if we want to say "fight a war", are the {noH Suv} and {noH ghob} acceptable ?
and how do we say "win a war/battle" and "lose a war/battle" ?
{noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay chavbe'lu' 'ej wo' choqmeH may' DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu'.} "Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat." -- TKW p.211
-- De'vID
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On 30 December 2016 at 13:38, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
DevID:
{noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay chavbe'lu' 'ej wo' choqmeH may' DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu'.}
the {noH QapmeH} is indeed pretty straightforward for "to win a war", but does the {lujbe'lu'} mean that we can say {noH lujlu'} for {someone lost the war} ?
also, are the {noH Suv} and {noH ghob} acceptable, for "to fight a war" ?
KGT p.47: <Thus, it is possible to say {noH ghob} or {noH Suv}, both meaning "He/she fights a war," or {may' ghob} or {may' Suv}, meaning "He/she fights a battle," but it is not normally acceptable to say {veS ghob} ("He/she fights a warfare") or {vIq Suv} ("He/she fights a combat").> -- De'vID
however, the question now arises: because {Qap} can take an object, we can say {noH wIQap}. but can the {luj} take an object as well ? because if it cannot take an object, then we can't say {noH wIluj}, and we can only say things like {vanDI' noH, maluj}. so, can the {luj} take an object ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 30 Dec 2016 3:11 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 30 December 2016 at 13:38, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
DevID:
{noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay chavbe'lu' 'ej wo' choqmeH may' DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu'.}
the {noH QapmeH} is indeed pretty straightforward for "to win a war", but does the {lujbe'lu'} mean that we can say {noH lujlu'} for {someone lost the war} ?
also, are the {noH Suv} and {noH ghob} acceptable, for "to fight a war" ?
KGT p.47: <Thus, it is possible to say {noH ghob} or {noH Suv}, both meaning "He/she fights a war," or {may' ghob} or {may' Suv}, meaning "He/she fights a battle," but it is not normally acceptable to say {veS ghob} ("He/she fights a warfare") or {vIq Suv} ("He/she fights a combat").>
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 30 December 2016 at 15:08, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
however, the question now arises:
because {Qap} can take an object, we can say {noH wIQap}. but can the {luj} take an object as well ? because if it cannot take an object, then we can't say {noH wIluj}, and we can only say things like {vanDI' noH, maluj}.
so, can the {luj} take an object ?
noH DalujlaHbe'chugh noH DaQaplaHbe'. There are many Klingon verbs without canon examples to clarify whether they can take an object or what the object would be. You just have to go by the definition, and how similar or related verbs are used. In the case of {luj}, I don't have any evidence that it takes an object (maybe someone can find some). But I think it's reasonable to treat it as parallel to {Qap}, bearing in mind that Maltz can always contradict this. -- De'vID
Am 30.12.2016 um 12:52 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
and how do we say "win a war/battle" and "lose a war/battle" ?
Am 30.12.2016 um 13:26 schrieb De'vID:
"Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat." -- TKW p.211
Am 30.12.2016 um 13:38 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
also, are the {noH Suv} and {noH ghob} acceptable,
Am 30.12.2016 um 14:11 schrieb De'vID:
KGT p.47: <Thus, it is possible to say {noH ghob} or {noH Suv}, both meaning
cha'logh tlhIngan Hol paqmey DalaDnISba', qunnoq, qar'a'? ;-) HIHoHQo', jIqID neH. 'ach rapbe' pab Sov. ghantoH paqmey luSovnISlu'chu' je. tIlaD, ghIq tIlaDqa'. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
bIlugh lieven ! 'a yabwIj lutlhoDmoH ghantoH paqmey. Huj, jISov.. 'a yajmeH laHwIj, luSabmoH ghantoH mu'tlheghmey. wanI'vam vIQIjlaHbe', 'a teH. ghantoH paq vIlaDvIp.. jIqIDbe'. meqvammo', ghantoH mu'tlhegh vIjun. SKI: you are definitely right lieven ! however -as strange as this may sound-, canon books confuse me and cripple my ability to understand. because of this reason, I am afraid to systematically read canon. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 31 Dec 2016 10:40 am, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 30.12.2016 um 12:52 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
and how do we say "win a war/battle" and "lose a war/battle" ?
Am 30.12.2016 um 13:26 schrieb De'vID:
"Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat." -- TKW p.211
Am 30.12.2016 um 13:38 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
also, are the {noH Suv} and {noH ghob} acceptable,
Am 30.12.2016 um 14:11 schrieb De'vID:
KGT p.47: <Thus, it is possible to say {noH ghob} or {noH Suv}, both meaning
cha'logh tlhIngan Hol paqmey DalaDnISba', qunnoq, qar'a'? ;-) HIHoHQo', jIqID neH. 'ach rapbe' pab Sov. ghantoH paqmey luSovnISlu'chu' je. tIlaD, ghIq tIlaDqa'.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 31.12.2016 um 10:59 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
SKI: you are definitely right lieven ! however -as strange as this may sound-, canon books confuse me and cripple my ability to understand. because of this reason, I am afraid to systematically read canon.
Depends on what you read; Any beginner should know TKW word-for-word. Entirely. It will help you translate many things. And forget about paq'batlh. It really is confusing. It's like you would learn English for three months and then take Shakespeare to read. I admire you for learning Klingon in such a short time, but it also shows that you have sometimes overrun some of it a little and stumble over your own feet. Repeat the first steps, and try pb later. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
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mayqel qunenoS