jatlh Lieven: I had a chance ask Marc Okrand, and he said that Maltz had never heard of a "wiki", but he pronounced it as {wI'qIy}. << this is canon now. But note that it's not a Klingon word, just the klingon spelling for a federation word, like {'e'levan}. Here's the entire message: (see http://www.qephom.de/e/message_from_maltz_170801.html) ------------- "Wiki" in English is pronounced with stress on the first syllable, which has the same vowel sound as "with" or "which" or "hit" – Klingon {I} – and the second syllable is the same as English "key." So it rhymes with "Mickey" or "picky." If "Klingonized," I think it would be {wI'qIy}. It's not a Klingon word, but Klingons would use the Federation Standard word (probably pronounced in the Klingon way) for this Federation thing. I don't know if Klingons have a similar sort of thing. I'll have to see what Maltz has to say. (It's okay to forward this information – the important part is that it's not a Klingon word, but the Klingon pronunciation [and spelling] of a Federation Standard word that Klingons use from time to time. Same as {'e'levan}. Or you can wait and we can just include it in the qepHom wish list.)
I'm not sure who Matlz's Hawaiian tutor is, but shouldn't "wiki" be transliterated as {wIyqIy}? Hawaiian has a glottal stop, and "wikiwiki" doesn't have one. This song from Lilo & Stitch uses the phrase "wiki wiki" for those that wish to listen to the pronunciation: https://youtu.be/JUq8i_NGytE ~naHQun
On 8/2/2017 12:57 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
I'm not sure who Matlz's Hawaiian tutor is, but shouldn't "wiki" be transliterated as {wIyqIy}? Hawaiian has a glottal stop, and "wikiwiki" doesn't have one.
Maltz also uses the property of the glottal stop to stress the syllable it appears in. By the general stress rules, *wIyqIy* would be pronounced with stress on the *qIy,* while *wI'qIy* is stressed on the *wI'.* (He /could /have said it was *wIy'qIy,* but he didn't.) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
It seems Maltz is also working with the Americanized pronunciation of "wiki", which is what many people use when referring to Wikipedia and its derivatives, rather than the original Hawaiian. On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:07 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/2/2017 12:57 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
I'm not sure who Matlz's Hawaiian tutor is, but shouldn't "wiki" be transliterated as {wIyqIy}? Hawaiian has a glottal stop, and "wikiwiki" doesn't have one.
Maltz also uses the property of the glottal stop to stress the syllable it appears in. By the general stress rules, *wIyqIy* would be pronounced with stress on the *qIy,* while *wI'qIy* is stressed on the *wI'.* (He *could *have said it was *wIy'qIy,* but he didn't.)
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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jatlh SuStel: Maltz also uses the property of the glottal stop to stress the syllable it appears in. By the general stress rules, *wIyqIy* would be pronounced with stress on the *qIy,* while *wI'qIy* is stressed on the *wI'.* (He *could *have said it was *wIy'qIy,* but he didn't.)
jatlh nicolay:
It seems Maltz is also working with the Americanized pronunciation of "wiki", which is what many people use when referring to Wikipedia and its derivatives, rather than the original Hawaiian.
jatlh Matlh; "Wiki" in English is pronounced with stress on the first syllable, which has the same vowel sound as "with" or "which" or "hit" – Klingon {I} – and the second syllable is the same as English "key." So it rhymes with "Mickey" or "picky." I'm less concerned with the stress of the loanword and more concerned about the mispronunciation. It's a loan word. Klingons can learn which syllable gets the emphasis. American pronunciation? Is that what Maltz is trying to describe there? As an American, I have never heard anyone say "wiki" in a way that rhymes with "Mickey". The first part of "wiki" is "we" as in "us" (or one could argue "wee" as in small). Which is the same sound as the second part which is "key". Regardless of where the stress lies, the "i" isn't changing sounds. Hawaiian is just as phonetic as Klingon is. ~naHQun
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. <nahqun@gmail.com> wrote:
American pronunciation? Is that what Maltz is trying to describe there? As an American, I have never heard anyone say "wiki" in a way that rhymes with "Mickey".
Really? Because as an American, I've never heard anyone *not* say it that way. bI'reng
Maybe its a regional dialect thing. Everyone here pronounces 'wiki' like it rhhymes with 'mickey'. Tim Stoffel -- -----Original Message----- From: Brent Kesler <brent.of.all.people@gmail.com> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] wikiwiki (was Re: Klingon Weather Forecast) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 13:58:06 -0400 On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. <nahqun@gmail.com> wrote:
American pronunciation? Is that what Maltz is trying to describe there? As an American, I have never heard anyone say "wiki" in a way that rhymes with "Mickey".
Really? Because as an American, I've never heard anyone not say it that way. bI'reng _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Tim Stoffel <tim@lionlamb.us> wrote:
Maybe its a regional dialect thing. Everyone here pronounces 'wiki' like it rhhymes with 'mickey'.
It's more like a *lack of regional dialect* thing. Those who know the language it is derived from are relatively few, compared to those who have read the Internet term. When I'm talking about the pseudo-markup for quick editing of web pages, I generally pronounce "wiki" with a first vowel kind of between the "i" in "bit" and the "ee" in "beet". It's sort of a compromise between the Hawaiian origin and the Anglicized rendition. But if I'm invoking the reduplicated "wikiwiki" for "really quick", I generally pronounce it with all "ee" sounds. As with the obvious cognates "caffeine" and {qa'vIn}, I don't feel the need to slavishly maintain the pronunciation from one language when I'm using the word in another. But if you insist that it *has* to be "weekee" because of its etymology, you should also be pronouncing "encyclopedia" with a hard "k" sound because of its Greek origin. :-P -- ghunchu'wI'
On 8/2/2017 1:48 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
American pronunciation? Is that what Maltz is trying to describe there? As an American, I have never heard anyone say "wiki" in a way that rhymes with "Mickey".
Oh yes, that is how nearly everyone pronounces /wiki./ It rhymes perfectly with /Mickey./ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/En-us-wiki.ogg -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 8/2/2017 1:48 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
American pronunciation? Is that what Maltz is trying to describe there?
Yes, that's what he said in his message.
As an American, I have never heard anyone say "wiki" in a way that rhymes with "Mickey".
Am 02.08.2017 um 20:00 schrieb SuStel:
Oh yes, that is how nearly everyone pronounces /wiki./ It rhymes perfectly with /Mickey./
Unless you have someone who says Mickey like "my key". :-) -- Lieven
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
On 8/2/2017 1:48 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
American pronunciation? Is that what Maltz is trying to describe there?
Yes, that's what he said in his message.
As an American, I have never heard anyone say "wiki" in a way that rhymes with "Mickey".
Am 02.08.2017 um 20:00 schrieb SuStel:
Oh yes, that is how nearly everyone pronounces /wiki./ It rhymes
perfectly with /Mickey./
Unless you have someone who says Mickey like "my key". :-)
-- Lieven
While "my key" is a common nickname, it's spelled differently. Lieven, if you wouldn't mind, could you inform Maltz that "wiki" is a Hawaiian word and not an English one. And then I'll likely shut up on the matter. ~naHQun
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 2:47 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. <nahqun@gmail.com> wrote:
Lieven, if you wouldn't mind, could you inform Maltz that "wiki" is a Hawaiian word and not an English one. And then I'll likely shut up on the matter.
One could make the argument that it's an English word that was derived from Hawaiian. The English word "wiki" doesn't mean the same as the Hawaiian, for instance.
Am 02.08.2017 um 20:47 schrieb Michael Roney, Jr.:
Lieven, if you wouldn't mind, could you inform Maltz that "wiki" is a Hawaiian word and not an English one. And then I'll likely shut up on the matter.
I'll try what I can do, because I am not in direct contact with Maltz. I guess the basic problem is that Maltz is a Klingon informant in contact with the federation, whose primary language is "Federation Standard", i.e. English. This explains why nearly all of the loanword are based on English and not anything else. For instance, see {pIqarD}, which should be "pIyqagh" from the French pronunciation, or {'anyan} and other fruits which is different in most languages on earth. You may also see it from this perspective: Maltz was asked if he new what a wiki is by an English speaker. Maltz didn't know the word and just repeated it how he heard it, and that's what Marc Okrand wrote down. Am 02.08.2017 um 20:56 schrieb nIqolay Q:
One could make the argument that it's an English word that was derived from Hawaiian. The English word "wiki" doesn't mean the same as the Hawaiian, for instance.
Good point. English speakers - especially computer geeks - see the word wiki as a term for some computer system. Most don't even knwo what it meant initially. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
lieven:
Most don't even knwo what it meant initially.
vaj, tagha'Ha' nuq 'oH ? so, what did it mean initially ? qunnoq On 2 Aug 2017 10:01 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 02.08.2017 um 20:47 schrieb Michael Roney, Jr.:
Lieven, if you wouldn't mind, could you inform Maltz that "wiki" is a Hawaiian word and not an English one. And then I'll likely shut up on the matter.
I'll try what I can do, because I am not in direct contact with Maltz.
I guess the basic problem is that Maltz is a Klingon informant in contact with the federation, whose primary language is "Federation Standard", i.e. English. This explains why nearly all of the loanword are based on English and not anything else.
For instance, see {pIqarD}, which should be "pIyqagh" from the French pronunciation, or {'anyan} and other fruits which is different in most languages on earth.
You may also see it from this perspective: Maltz was asked if he new what a wiki is by an English speaker. Maltz didn't know the word and just repeated it how he heard it, and that's what Marc Okrand wrote down.
Am 02.08.2017 um 20:56 schrieb nIqolay Q:
One could make the argument that it's an English word that was derived from Hawaiian. The English word "wiki" doesn't mean the same as the Hawaiian, for instance.
Good point. English speakers - especially computer geeks - see the word wiki as a term for some computer system. Most don't even knwo what it meant initially.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
lieven:
Most don't even knwo what it meant initially.
Am 02.08.2017 um 21:30 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
vaj, tagha'Ha' nuq 'oH ? so, what did it mean initially ?
I just noticed that this information really is not part of the message, and will be added immediately: The message was talking all the time about websites which are accessible in wiki-style, i.e. easy and fast to edit. The word "wiki" is hawaiian and means "quick". By the way, the WP-page on this topic shows that the software thing is pronounced like Maltz suggested {wI'qIy} or [ˈwɪki], while the hawaiian word is pronounced with two identical {i}, so wee-kee, [wiki] or {wIyqIy} using Okrandian spelling. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
participants (9)
-
Alan Anderson -
Brent Kesler -
DloraH -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
Michael Roney, Jr. -
nIqolay Q -
SuStel -
Tim Stoffel