difference between {ta'} and {voDleH}
Is there a difference between {ta'} and {voDleH} ? Is one more "formal" than the other ? ~ fhffhfh
That’s a very old question that Okrand has never addressed AFAIK. Here’s what I know: {ta'} : (KGT 14): Throughout Klingon history, and still today, if the leader of the Empire carries the title {ta'} (Emperor)... (Lieven < MO, 1/01/2018): The emperor's castle/palace is simply {ta' jem'IH}. If, however, the emphasis is to be on the elegance or grandeur of the {jem'IH}, there's another word that can be used: {DuHmor}. A {DuHmor} is a type of {jem'IH}, so it's a good place for the emperor to hang out. For clarify, you can say {ta' DuHmor}. The emperor's official residence would more likely be referred to as a {DuHmor} than a {jem'IH}, but not necessarily always. Klingon ships, of course, are battle-ready, so any ship designed to be the residence of the emperor might, I suppose, be referred to as a {jem'IH} or {ta' jem'IH}. And if it's a particularly grand place, then {DuHmor} or {ta' DuHmor} could make sense. ta' tlhIngan Hol the Emperor's Klingon (i.e. the standard dialect) ta' Hol standard dialect (i.e. proper, grammatical Klingon) (KGT 14f.): Throughout Klingon history, and still today, if the leader of the Empire carries the title {ta'} (Emperor), the way he speaks Klingon--that is, the dialect used by his family and people from his region--is always considered the best way. The vocabulary and grammatical details typical of the leader's area become the current model for the Empire. The way other people speak, if different, is considered somehow inferior, and the more any given dialect differs from that of the Emperor, the more inferior it is considered. Not only is the way of speaking considered inferior, anyone speaking only a nonstandard dialect is considered to be inferior as well, motivating everyone to learn to speak the way the Emperor does. On the other hand, since a change in leadership tends to bring in an Emperor from a different lineage and different region, the relative status of the different varieties can easily change, with a dialect formerly associated with a certain region becoming the standard dialect spoken by all. As a result, the various dialects of Klingon have persisted, with most Klingons becoming adept at several of them. The system by which the Emperor's dialect is considered the standard dialect stayed in place even during those times when there was no official Emperor, as has been the case, until recently, for the last 300 years. Regardless of the leader's title, the leader's way of speaking is still considered the best. The term used for the standard dialect, however, harks back to the Emperors: {ta' tlhIngan Hol} (literally, "the Emperor's Klingon"), often shortened to {ta' Hol} ("Emperor's language"). It is appropriate to use these terms regardless of the official title of the leader of the Empire. {voDleH} : voDleH Ha'DIbaH emperor's meat (n) (KGT 90f): If the meat is somewhat older, a common preparation technique is to {HaH} (marinate) it in any of a wide variety of concoctions containing {'Iw} (blood) and/or {vIychorgh} (sap) as a base, along with assorted animal parts. Meat prepared in this style is also called {voDleH Ha'DIbaH} (emperor's meat), again with the specific animal used instead of {Ha'DIbaH}; for example, {voDleH lIngta'} (emperor's *lingta*). (Presumably there was an emperor at one time who liked his meat prepared in this fashion.) AFAIK, an emperor is only mentioned once in the paq’batlh using {voDleH}: Qo'noS tuqmey muvchuqmoH qeylIS 'ej chaHvaD batlh chutmey nob tlhIngan wo' voDleH moj Sughlu’ Kahless united the tribes of Kronos, And provided them with the laws of honor, He was crowned emperor of the Klingon Empire. (PB) Someone once pointed out that {voDleH} might be etymologically related to {betleH}, {meqleH}, {tIqleH}, and {'aqleH} – all types of ancient weapons. FWIW Kahless created the first {batlh ‘etlh} or {betleH}. Also {ta’} is phonetically identical to the aspectual suffix {-ta'} “accomplished, done”, the verb {ta'} “do, accomplish” and the noun {ta'} “deed, accomplishment” - which was associated with Kahless and his family in the paq’batlh: Dung qo’ pawDI’ qeylIS qorDu’ je ta’’e’ neH bop bommey. Upon reaching the upper world, No one could speak of anything, But the deeds of Kahless and his kin. (PB) Here {bom} recalls the proverb {ta'mey Dun, bommey Dun} “Great deeds, great songs”: (KGT 70f.): Warriors have long celebrated great achievements and key events in song, reinforcing the importance of the accomplishments and actually reliving them while singing. Great deeds are "deeds worthy of song," as the Klingon leader Gowron once put it, and part of the appeal of engaging in battle is the prospect that, if the battle is a really good one, it will be fought over and over again in song. Other than {ta’} being slightly more common, I can’t see any real difference in usage. Can you? -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons On Behalf Of mayqel qunen'oS Is there a difference between {ta'} and {voDleH} ? Is one more "formal" than the other ?
voragh:
I can’t see any real difference in usage. Can you?
Me neither. I just *feel* as a more "formal" word the {voDleH} compared to the {ta'}, but of course this is just a "feeling". What I do wonder though, is whether in a looong text e.g. the new testament, I should choose one of the two and stick with it, or use them interchangeably. But I guess there's no answer to that. But if there *is* one, qeylIS knows, I would like to hear it.. ~ gkgjkh
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:44 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I just *feel* as a more "formal" word the {voDleH} compared to the {ta'}, but of course this is just a "feeling".
If nothing else, {voDleH} has fewer opportunities for wordplay.
What I do wonder though, is whether in a looong text e.g. the new testament, I should choose one of the two and stick with it, or use them interchangeably.
If you're referring to the same emperor each time (like if you're using it to refer to Herod), I would stick with the same noun each time.
If you need to choose, I would use {voDleH} if only because {ta’} (accomplish) occurs often in Klingon as a suffix, verb, and noun as well as an element in other nouns: e.g. {jonta'} engine, {lIngta'} lingta (type of animal), {mellota'} Mellota (proper name), {mIqta'} machinery, {qoSta'} ribbon/tape, {raHta'} racht (type of food), {'evta'} type of animal similar to a newt/salamander, etc. OTOH if both words are still actively used in the “modern” language, {ta’} may be preferred for official ranks (e.g. {Voragh ta’} Emperor Voragh) since most common ranks or titles are one syllable words (HoD, Sa’, la’, joH, Qang, etc.). That would leave {voDleH} available for descriptions or other statements (e.g. tlhIngan wo’ voDleH wa’DIch ghaH qeylIS’e’ “Kahless was the first emperor of the Klingon Empire”). [BTW I just overlooked another example of {ta’} in {ta'puq} “prince” from The Little Prince.] -- Voragh ____________________________________________________________________ From: mayqel qunen'oS voragh:
I can’t see any real difference in usage. Can you?
Me neither. I just *feel* as a more "formal" word the {voDleH} compared to the {ta'}, but of course this is just a "feeling". What I do wonder though, is whether in a looong text e.g. the new testament, I should choose one of the two and stick with it, or use them interchangeably. But I guess there's no answer to that. But if there *is* one, qeylIS knows, I would like to hear it..
nIqolay Q
If you're referring to the same emperor each time (like if you're using it to refer to Herod), I would stick with the same noun each time.
This is a nice idea, but I don't know whether in a looong passage I'd actually remember which-emperor-I-called-how. voragh:
If you need to choose, I would use {voDleH} if only because {ta’} (accomplish) occurs often in Klingon as a suffix, verb, and noun as well as an element in other nouns
True. I never liked seeing in a klingon sentence, the same word meaning different things. Just my personal preference.. Anyways, I think the best approach, is choosing one of the two while writing a looong passage, and then praying to qeylIS, that matlh won't reveal one day something that fracks up the end result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frak_(expletive) ~ khjkhhj
taHjaj wo’, ‘ej taHjaj voDleHma’... charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Jul 1, 2019, at 11:46 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
nIqolay Q
If you're referring to the same emperor each time (like if you're using it to refer to Herod), I would stick with the same noun each time.
This is a nice idea, but I don't know whether in a looong passage I'd actually remember which-emperor-I-called-how.
voragh:
If you need to choose, I would use {voDleH} if only because {ta’} (accomplish) occurs often in Klingon as a suffix, verb, and noun as well as an element in other nouns
True.
I never liked seeing in a klingon sentence, the same word meaning different things. Just my personal preference..
Anyways, I think the best approach, is choosing one of the two while writing a looong passage, and then praying to qeylIS, that matlh won't reveal one day something that fracks up the end result.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frak_(expletive)
~ khjkhhj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I’m having another one of those moments, like when Dash is in the car at the end of The Incredibles and says, “I love this family." charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Jul 1, 2019, at 12:26 PM, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
On Jul 1, 2019, at 11:12, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
taHjaj wo’, ‘ej taHjaj voDleHma’... …wItoy'mo' vaj nuquvmoHjaj ta'…
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 17:44:38 +0300 "mayqel qunen'oS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
voragh:
I can’t see any real difference in usage. Can you?
Me neither.
I just *feel* as a more "formal" word the {voDleH} compared to the {ta'}, but of course this is just a "feeling".
What I do wonder though, is whether in a looong text e.g. the new testament, I should choose one of the two and stick with it, or use them interchangeably.
But I guess there's no answer to that.
But if there *is* one, qeylIS knows, I would like to hear it..
~ gkgjkh
As already stated, we don't know if there is a difference; but I am curious... in the /original/ text, how many words are used for emperor, king, and other related words? - DloraH
DloraH:
As already stated, we don't know if there is a difference; but I am curious... in the /original/ text, how many words are used for emperor, king, and other related words?
jISovbe'.. mu'meyvam vItoghpu'be'. motlh *king* mu' lo'lu', 'ej mu'vam vImughmeH, {ta'} {voDleH} ghap mu'mey vIlo'. I don't know.. I haven't counted them. Usually, the word "king" is used, and in order to translate this word, I use {ta'} or {voDleH}. ~ jkjkjhhk
On Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:51:33 +0300 "mayqel qunen'oS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
DloraH:
As already stated, we don't know if there is a difference; but I am curious... in the /original/ text, how many words are used for emperor, king, and other related words?
jISovbe'.. mu'meyvam vItoghpu'be'. motlh *king* mu' lo'lu', 'ej mu'vam vImughmeH, {ta'} {voDleH} ghap mu'mey vIlo'.
I don't know.. I haven't counted them. Usually, the word "king" is used, and in order to translate this word, I use {ta'} or {voDleH}.
DamughmeH, DIvI' Hol Dalo''a'? mung Hol Dalo''a'? - DloraH
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:44 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I just *feel* as a more "formal" word the {voDleH} compared to the {ta'},
but of course this is just a "feeling".
What I do wonder though, is whether in a looong text e.g. the new
testament, I should choose one of the two and stick with it, or use them interchangeably. Personally, I think {voDleH} would be better suited for such a text. Unless you were talking about two emperors at once, and then it would make sense to assign {voDleH} to one and {ta'} to the other. ~naHQun
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:44 AM mayqel qunen'oS
I just *feel* as a more "formal" word the {voDleH} compared to the {ta'}, but of course this is just a "feeling". I know it's based on nothing and just my feeling:
I think that due to its length, {voDleH} sounds a lot more "majestic", more formal. The word {ta'} sounds like an everyday speech word, that is problably used m ore often in daily speech. All of this is just theory of course. I probably feel the same in English, where "King" sounds less important to me than "The Emperor". Since I liked the sound and the uniqueness of the word, I translated "King" with {voDleH} in "The Little Prince". -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/TheLittlePrince
On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 13:07, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:44 AM mayqel qunen'oS
I just *feel* as a more "formal" word the {voDleH} compared to the {ta'}, but of course this is just a "feeling". I know it's based on nothing and just my feeling:
I think that due to its length, {voDleH} sounds a lot more "majestic", more formal. The word {ta'} sounds like an everyday speech word, that is problably used m ore often in daily speech.
I wonder if {voDleH} is used just in formal situations, or to avoid ambiguity (with the noun meaning "accomplishment" or the verb suffix).
All of this is just theory of course. I probably feel the same in English, where "King" sounds less important to me than "The Emperor".
But a king and an emperor are actually different things. The reason "king" sounds less important than "emperor" is because it is. The rulers of empires are emperors (empresses), and the rulers of kingdoms are kings (queens). Empires are typically much larger than kingdoms (compare the British Empire and the United Kingdom). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial,_royal_and_noble_ranks Since I liked the sound and the uniqueness of the word, I translated
"King" with {voDleH} in "The Little Prince".
Without knowing more about Klingon political history or the etymology of {ta'} and {voDleH}, that's seems like a reasonable choice. -- De'vID
Am 03.07.2019 um 13:32 schrieb De'vID:
But a king and an emperor are actually different things. The reason "king" sounds less important than "emperor" is because it is.
I know that. As I wrote, this was just my personal feeling, and it's only based on the sound. I only said that it feels to me that a three syllbale word sounds more important than a one syllable word. Okay, my "boss" would tell the "ja-ni-tor" a different story! *haha* -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 13:36, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 03.07.2019 um 13:32 schrieb De'vID:
But a king and an emperor are actually different things. The reason "king" sounds less important than "emperor" is because it is.
I know that. As I wrote, this was just my personal feeling, and it's only based on the sound.
Oh, when you wrote "sounds less important" you *literally* meant "*sounds* less important".
I only said that it feels to me that a three syllbale word sounds more important than a one syllable word.
Okay, my "boss" would tell the "ja-ni-tor" a different story! *haha*
I guess that, to someone who doesn't know their meaning, "Lieutenant Commander" might *sound* a lot more impressive than "Captain". Obviously there are many counterexamples to "the more syllables the better". Fortunately, all nine ranks of officers in Klingon are monosyllabic. -- De'vID
participants (9)
-
Daniel Dadap -
De'vID -
DloraH -
Lieven L. Litaer -
M Roney -
mayqel qunen'oS -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
Will Martin