two klorns of bloodwine, a bottle of water
This is a question that came up over on the Discord server. I thought it would be good to open it up to more opinions and have the discussion archived on the mailing list. How would you say "two klorns of bloodwine"? For example, "I want to drink two klorns of bloodwine"? How would you say "a jug of water" (or "three jugs of water", etc ), meaning water served in a water jug. (That is, how would you refer to the water in the water jug, and not the jug itself, bearing in mind that {bIQ bal} is defined as "water jug" in KGT.) Can the noun-noun construction (N1-N2 = N2 of the N1) be used here? (For the sake of the argument, let's say that context alone isn't sufficient to distinguish between a jug full of water from an empty water jug.) -- De'vID
De'vID:
How would you say "two klorns of bloodwine"? For example, "I want to drink two klorns of bloodwine"?
{cha' tlho'ren 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh vIneH} In english you say "two klorns *of* bloodwine", but the "of" is just an english-required thing. In greek we just say "I want to drink two klorns bloodwine". De'vID:
How would you say "a jug of water" (or "three jugs of water", etc ), meaning water served in a water jug. (That is, how would you refer to the water in the water jug, and not the jug itself, bearing in mind that {bIQ bal} is defined as "water jug" in KGT.)
{bIQ'e' ngaSbogh wa' bIQ bal} {bIQ'e' lungaSbogh wej bIQ bal} ~ Dana'an
De'vID:
How would you say "a jug of water" (or "three jugs of water", etc ), meaning water served in a water jug. (That is, how would you refer to the water in the water jug, and not the jug itself, bearing in mind that {bIQ bal} is defined as "water jug" in KGT.)
Technically, I guess one *could* say: {wa' bIQ bal bIQ} {wej bIQ bal bIQ} for "the water of one water jug" and "the (amount of) water of three water jugs", but as a matter of personal preference, I'd rather go with the {x ngaSbogh y} option. ~ Dana'an
That is an interesting question. At this point, I would look at the somewhat ambiguous phrase from Power Klingon: Terran: {jabwI', romuluS HIq vItlhutlh.} Waiter, I will drink Romulan ale. Klingon: {jabwI', cha' HIvje' tIqem! tera'ngan motlhbe' SoH.} Waiter, bring two glasses! -- You are an unusual Terran. Of course this is a very literal translation of the English, and it also does not explain if the Klingon asks for two empty glasses which he will fill from the bottle, or if he says "two glasses of ale", but you could use that to express the idea: {wa'Hu' 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh. cha' HIvje'.} "I had bloodwine last night. Two glasses." -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/PowerKlingon
And just to offer other alternatives: ‘Iw HIq vItlhutlhmeH cha’logh HIvje’wIj vIlo’. ‘Iw HIq yap vItlhutlh vIneHmo' cha’logh HIvje’wIj vIlo’. ‘Iw HIq’e’ cha'logh HIvje’ vIlIchchu’pu’ ‘ej vIchImmoHchu’pu’. HIvje’ vIroS. pup ‘Iw HIqvetlh. ‘Iw HIq vItlhutlh. SIbI’ HIvje’wIj vIlIchqa’ ‘ej vItlhutlhqa’. [Setup for an old joke about three Irish brothers:] ‘Iw HIq’e’ jIHvaD, DachtaHbogh cha’ loDnI’wI'vaD je wej HIvje’ vIlIch. Hoch vItlhutlh. charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Apr 29, 2021, at 10:44 AM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
That is an interesting question. At this point, I would look at the somewhat ambiguous phrase from Power Klingon:
Terran: {jabwI', romuluS HIq vItlhutlh.} Waiter, I will drink Romulan ale.
Klingon: {jabwI', cha' HIvje' tIqem! tera'ngan motlhbe' SoH.} Waiter, bring two glasses! -- You are an unusual Terran.
Of course this is a very literal translation of the English, and it also does not explain if the Klingon asks for two empty glasses which he will fill from the bottle, or if he says "two glasses of ale", but you could use that to express the idea:
{wa'Hu' 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh. cha' HIvje'.} "I had bloodwine last night. Two glasses."
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/PowerKlingon _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4/29/2021 11:08 AM, Will Martin wrote:
And just to offer other alternatives:
Honestly, I think the most obvious way to order two bloodwines is to say: *'Iw HIq. cha' HIvje'.*/Bloodwine. Two glasses. / Everyone's always making intricate constructions in order to force one English sentence into one complete Klingon sentence, but I honestly think Klingon is more flexible than that. Complete sentences are not necessary. Single sentences are not necessary. It feels much more natural in Klingon to just shove pieces together in ways that makes the context clear. I honestly think, based not so much on canon but on how the language just naturally seems to work, that we over-translate all the time. *warnagh HIngev! wej tlho'ren.*/Sell me three klorns of warnog!/ *He chu' yIghoS. DIvI' neHmaH.*/Set a course for the Federation Neutral Zone./ *DoS yIbuS! QuQ neH.*/Target engine only!/ // -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 4/29/2021 2:47 AM, De'vID wrote:
This is a question that came up over on the Discord server. I thought it would be good to open it up to more opinions and have the discussion archived on the mailing list.
How would you say "two klorns of bloodwine"? For example, "I want to drink two klorns of bloodwine"?
How would you say "a jug of water" (or "three jugs of water", etc ), meaning water served in a water jug. (That is, how would you refer to the water in the water jug, and not the jug itself, bearing in mind that {bIQ bal} is defined as "water jug" in KGT.)
Can the noun-noun construction (N1-N2 = N2 of the N1) be used here?
(For the sake of the argument, let's say that context alone isn't sufficient to distinguish between a jug full of water from an empty water jug.)
*bIQ* is a mass noun, so saying *bal bIQ*/jug-water/ would also be a mass noun. Without special rules, you couldn't make it countable. In English, water is usually a mass noun, but it can be made countable when referring to a serving of water, so that you can say /three waters./ I do not assume you can do that in Klingon without word from Maltz. But you can certainly say *bal bIQ vItlhutlh vIneH*/I want to drink jug-water; I want to drink water from a jug./ Otherwise, I'd go for the lengthier, but uncontroversial, *bIQ ngaSbogh wej bal*/three jugs containing water//water contained in three jugs,//and *cha' tlho'ren muqbogh 'Iw HIq*/bloodwine having a volume of two klorns./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I agree with the consensus here and just want to point out that unless there’s a standard size for a jug, it can’t really be used as a unit of measure, so counting them doesn’t make a lot of sense. {tlho’ren} (klorn) is a unit measure of volume. {bIQ bal} is not. Of course, with a given context, you could be at a bar pointing to a specific {bIQ bal} and say {wej bIQ balvetlh}, but there is no known standard size for a {bIQ bal}. charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Apr 29, 2021, at 9:10 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 4/29/2021 2:47 AM, De'vID wrote:
This is a question that came up over on the Discord server. I thought it would be good to open it up to more opinions and have the discussion archived on the mailing list.
How would you say "two klorns of bloodwine"? For example, "I want to drink two klorns of bloodwine"?
How would you say "a jug of water" (or "three jugs of water", etc ), meaning water served in a water jug. (That is, how would you refer to the water in the water jug, and not the jug itself, bearing in mind that {bIQ bal} is defined as "water jug" in KGT.)
Can the noun-noun construction (N1-N2 = N2 of the N1) be used here?
(For the sake of the argument, let's say that context alone isn't sufficient to distinguish between a jug full of water from an empty water jug.)
bIQ is a mass noun, so saying bal bIQ jug-water would also be a mass noun. Without special rules, you couldn't make it countable. In English, water is usually a mass noun, but it can be made countable when referring to a serving of water, so that you can say three waters. I do not assume you can do that in Klingon without word from Maltz. But you can certainly say bal bIQ vItlhutlh vIneH I want to drink jug-water; I want to drink water from a jug.
Otherwise, I'd go for the lengthier, but uncontroversial, bIQ ngaSbogh wej bal three jugs containing water/water contained in three jugs, and cha' tlho'ren muqbogh 'Iw HIq bloodwine having a volume of two klorns.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4/29/2021 9:28 AM, Will Martin wrote:
I agree with the consensus here and just want to point out that unless there’s a standard size for a jug, it can’t really be used as a unit of measure, so counting them doesn’t make a lot of sense.
{tlho’ren} (klorn) is a unit measure of volume. {bIQ bal} is not.
Of course, with a given context, you could be at a bar pointing to a specific {bIQ bal} and say {wej bIQ balvetlh}, but there is no known standard size for a {bIQ bal}.
No one is suggesting that a jug is a standard size. *bal* doesn't just mean /jug; /it also means /jar/ and /bottle./ So peanut butter comes in a *bal,* as does water from a vending machine. If you're at a bar and you order *'Iw HIq tebSbogh wej bal,* the bartender isn't going to stop and puzzle over exactly how much bloodwine to give you. He or she is going to grab three pitchers and fill them with bloodwine. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 4/29/2021 9:35 AM, SuStel wrote:
*'Iw HIq tebSbogh wej bal*
I changed verbs in the middle of composing this, then forgot to switch the order of the arguments. 'Iw HIq ngaSbogh wej bal or wej bal tebbogh 'Iw HIq -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (5)
-
De'vID -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel -
Will Martin