I want to say "the produce which needs to be harvested is much". Read: law' Du' naH'e' yobnISbogh vumwI'pu' or law' Du' naH'e' luyobnISbogh vumwI'pu' Is the {Du' naH} to be understood as "the produce" i.e. singular, or is it to be understood as "fruit of the farm", so that {law' Du' naH} actually means "the fruits of the farm are many" ? Someone could wonder, how in case it means "the produce" (singular), it could be used as a subject for {law'}, but we have the Ca'Non {law' 'ul} (or is it {'ul law'} ?), although I don't remember where it's from. But the point here, isn't if I should use {law'} or {vItlh}. The point is what's happening with the {Du' naH}. Although, if it's "produce" I'd choose {vItlh}, and if it's "farm fruit" I'd go with {law'}. ~ m. qunen'oS
On Jun 19, 2019, at 11:41, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Is the {Du' naH} to be understood as "the produce" i.e. singular, or is it to be understood as "fruit of the farm", so that {law' Du' naH} actually means "the fruits of the farm are many" ?
Someone could wonder, how in case it means "the produce" (singular), it could be used as a subject for {law'}, but we have the Ca'Non {law' 'ul} (or is it {'ul law'} ?), although I don't remember where it's from.
DIvI' Hol jIyweS yIbuSHa'. DapoQbe'. naH DatoghlaHchugh vaj Du' naH DatoghlaHba' je. Just because a word is given an uncountable gloss in English doesn’t mean that it represents a fundamentally uncountable concept. (And as I understand it, the distinction between {law'} and {vItlh} has to do with whether something is countable or not, and not whether it’s singular or plural.)
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 at 18:47, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I want to say "the produce which needs to be harvested is much".
Read:
law' Du' naH'e' yobnISbogh vumwI'pu' or law' Du' naH'e' luyobnISbogh vumwI'pu'
KGT Daghaj'a'? tenwal chorghmaH HutDaq De' DaSuqbogh tu'lu'.
Is the {Du' naH} to be understood as "the produce" i.e. singular, or is it to be understood as "fruit of the farm", so that {law' Du' naH} actually means "the fruits of the farm are many" ?
mu' 'oH {Du'}'e'. mu' 'oH {naH}'e'. tay'DI' chen {Du' naH}. nap. bIQubtaHvIS tlhIngan Hol Dalo'be'law'. -- De'vID
De'vID:
KGT Daghaj'a'? tenwal chorghmaH HutDaq De' DaSuqbogh tu'lu
ok, I found it. For the purpose of making this thread complete, I'm pasting here the relevant info: "Fruit or vegetables that come from a farm ({Du'}) are called either {naH} alone or {Du' naH} ("farm fruit or vegetable," or "produce"); the wild variety is termed {naH tlhab} (literally, "free fruit or vegetable")." However, I still don't understand, if we could use plural on the {Du' naH}, as in {Du' naHmey}, or {Du'mey naHmey}. De'vID:
bIQubtaHvIS tlhIngan Hol Dalo'be'law'.
The problem is that thinking in klingon, doesn't always lead to the given Ca'Non meaning. For example, we have the {Say'qu'moH}, which is given as "sterilize". But if I thought in klingon, I would understand it to mean, "to make very clean", which is quite different from "sterilize". ~ m. qunen'oS
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 01:46:33PM +0300, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
The problem is that thinking in klingon, doesn't always lead to the given Ca'Non meaning.
For example, we have the {Say'qu'moH}, which is given as "sterilize". But if I thought in klingon, I would understand it to mean, "to make very clean", which is quite different from "sterilize".
I realize I'm jumping in late and may be missing earlier context, but in this particular instance I suspect you're thinking of a different meaning of "sterilize". The Klingon word {Say'qu'moH} presumably does *not* mean "to render incapable of reproduction" — in this case, I would assume that the translation as "sterilize" is meant in the sense of "remove all (microbial) life", which in a context where microbial life is perceived as a form of dirt really isn't all that far from "make very clean". It isn't meant to be an exact drop-in replacement for the English word, so much as a clue as to what a Klingon would usually say when an English speaker would use that particular English word. It's also likely that this particular Klingon word has acquired a more specific meaning that's not entirely predictable from the sum of its parts — and if you're going to think in Klingon, that also means taking those sorts of meanings into account. You can't just assume that every word means exactly and only what you see in the dictionary, just like you can't do that in English. - SapIr
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 12:46, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
KGT Daghaj'a'? tenwal chorghmaH HutDaq De' DaSuqbogh tu'lu
ok, I found it. For the purpose of making this thread complete, I'm pasting here the relevant info:
"Fruit or vegetables that come from a farm ({Du'}) are called either {naH} alone or {Du' naH} ("farm fruit or vegetable," or "produce"); the wild variety is termed {naH tlhab} (literally, "free fruit or vegetable")."
However, I still don't understand, if we could use plural on the {Du' naH}, as in {Du' naHmey}, or {Du'mey naHmey}.
naH Segh 'oH Du' naH'e'. wa' naH. wa' Du' naH. cha' naH(mey). cha' Du' naH(mey). nap.
De'vID:
bIQubtaHvIS tlhIngan Hol Dalo'be'law'.
The problem is that thinking in klingon, doesn't always lead to the given Ca'Non meaning.
For example, we have the {Say'qu'moH}, which is given as "sterilize". But if I thought in klingon, I would understand it to mean, "to make very clean", which is quite different from "sterilize".
Doch Da-sterilize-chugh, Dochvam DaSay'qu'moH. loQ nIbbe', 'ach pImbe' je. -- De'vID
Am 20.06.2019 um 12:46 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
However, I still don't understand, if we could use plural on the {Du' naH}, as in {Du' naHmey}, or {Du'mey naHmey}.
Why not? I'd take that literal, depending on what you want to make plural. {Du'mey naH} "fruit of farms" (whatever that is) {Du' naHmey} "fruits of the farm" (whatever that is)
The problem is that thinking in klingon, doesn't always lead to the given Ca'Non meaning.
It means you still focus too much on the English definition.
For example, we have the {Say'qu'moH}, which is given as "sterilize". But if I thought in klingon, I would understand it to mean, "to make very clean", which is quite different from "sterilize".
Maybe not from a Klingon point of view? :-) Even if you don't bother about thinking in Klingon or English or whatever, you could simply look at the definition and accept that the Klingon way to express "sterilize" is {Say'qu'moH}. Why not? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/ThinkLikeAKlingon
SapIr:
I realize I'm jumping in late and may be missing earlier context, but in this particular instance I suspect you're thinking of a different meaning of "sterilize". The Klingon word {Say'qu'moH} presumably does *not* mean "to render incapable of reproduction"
This meaning of "sterilize", never came to my mind. My confusion with {Say'moH} being given as "sterilize", instead of "make very clean", had to do with the fact, that in order to make lets say the cat very clean, you give it a good bath. But in order to sterilize it, you need after the bath, to apply on it alcohol, iodine solution etc. De'vID:
naH Segh 'oH Du' naH'e'. wa' naH. wa' Du' naH. cha' naH(mey). cha' Du' naH(mey).
oh, this is good. Finally I understand, thanks. lieven:
you could simply look at the definition and accept that the Klingon way to express "sterilize" is {Say'qu'moH}. Why not?
Indeed; I have no problem in accepting the given Ca'Non definition. I just mentioned it as an example, that sometimes, the given Ca'Non definition can be different, from what someone would understand, if he just analyzed the word on his own. And another example would be {'an}. It was given as "be a waste". If someone read {'anmoH}, he would understand "cause to be a waste", but {'anmoH} was given as "to sacrifice". Of course, from a klingon point of view (although I *really* hate this argument), "causing to be a waste" could be seen as "sacrificing" and vice versa. And there is the HeghmoH too.. Anyways, I understand now (or I think I do), so all is good. ~ m. qunen'oS
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 13:37, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SapIr:
I realize I'm jumping in late and may be missing earlier context, but in this particular instance I suspect you're thinking of a different meaning of "sterilize". The Klingon word {Say'qu'moH} presumably does *not* mean "to render incapable of reproduction"
This meaning of "sterilize", never came to my mind.
My confusion with {Say'moH} being given as "sterilize", instead of "make very clean", had to do with the fact, that in order to make lets say the cat very clean, you give it a good bath. But in order to sterilize it, you need after the bath, to apply on it alcohol, iodine solution etc.
Some of the glosses given to us are just "convenience" definitions so that ideas which may be expressed as something other than a simple word in Klingon (e.g., a verb with suffixes, or a sentence) can be looked up more easily. It's like {jeS 'e' Sap} for "sign up (for an event)" or {mebpa'mey} for "hotels". Considering that {Say'qu'moH} was glossed as "sterilize" among other medical/scientific terms such as {Hergh QaywI'}, {tuj muvwI'}, {'uD'a'}, {'uD Haqtaj}, and {woj}, I'm fairly confident that it just means that a Klingon doctor calling to sterilise an operating table or room would say {Say'qu'moH} "make (the table or room) *very* clean" and be understood, because *in that context* that's what making very clean would mean. It doesn't mean that if your dirty cat tracked mud all over my Bird-Of-Prey, and I tell you to {vIghro'lIj Say'qu'moH jay'}, that I expect you to apply alcohol and iodine to it. -- De'vID
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 14:59:31 +0200 "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 13:37, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SapIr:
I realize I'm jumping in late and may be missing earlier context, but in this particular instance I suspect you're thinking of a different meaning of "sterilize". The Klingon word {Say'qu'moH} presumably does *not* mean "to render incapable of reproduction"
This meaning of "sterilize", never came to my mind.
My confusion with {Say'moH} being given as "sterilize", instead of "make very clean", had to do with the fact, that in order to make lets say the cat very clean, you give it a good bath. But in order to sterilize it, you need after the bath, to apply on it alcohol, iodine solution etc.
Some of the glosses given to us are just "convenience" definitions so that ideas which may be expressed as something other than a simple word in Klingon (e.g., a verb with suffixes, or a sentence) can be looked up more easily. It's like {jeS 'e' Sap} for "sign up (for an event)" or {mebpa'mey} for "hotels".
Considering that {Say'qu'moH} was glossed as "sterilize" among other medical/scientific terms such as {Hergh QaywI'}, {tuj muvwI'}, {'uD'a'}, {'uD Haqtaj}, and {woj}, I'm fairly confident that it just means that a Klingon doctor calling to sterilise an operating table or room would say {Say'qu'moH} "make (the table or room) *very* clean" and be understood, because *in that context* that's what making very clean would mean.
It doesn't mean that if your dirty cat tracked mud all over my Bird-Of-Prey, and I tell you to {vIghro'lIj Say'qu'moH jay'}, that I expect you to apply alcohol and iodine to it.
I wonder how [Say'chu'moH] or [Say'chu'qu'moH] would fit into this. - DloraH
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 23:45, DloraH <seruq@bellsouth.net> wrote:
It doesn't mean that if your dirty cat tracked mud all over my Bird-Of-Prey, and I tell you to {vIghro'lIj Say'qu'moH jay'}, that I expect you to apply alcohol and iodine to it.
I wonder how [Say'chu'moH] or [Say'chu'qu'moH] would fit into this.
HaqwI' raS Say'qu'moHpu'DI', ratlhchugh 'Iw 'onroSHom, Say'qu'moHchu'be'pu'. -- De'vID
Am 20.06.2019 um 23:45 schrieb DloraH:
I wonder how [Say'chu'moH] or [Say'chu'qu'moH] would fit into this.
Setting aside the incorrect suffix order, this may be the important difference: If you wash your car, then it's {Say'chu'}. If you sterilize something, it's {Say'qu'}. We should not forget that although it's usually translated as "very", the suffix {-qu'} is defined as "emphatic" in TKD, saying that it "emphasizes [...] whatever immediately precedes it." So this may mean that {Say'qu'} means more than just "very clean", it means some kind of "intensely emphasised clean", which may be interpreted as "sterile clean". I'm not saying this aplies to ALL words combined with {-qu'}, but it may be a plausible explanation for this specific word. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Rover
I’d add that, being a person who overthinks EVERYTHING, and recognizing that this trait is far more common in this group than in any other group of people that I’ve known in my life, keep in mind that we are almost certainly thinking about this much more than Okrand ever did. It’s this trait of ours that makes him feel that he has to be really, really careful whenever he says anything about the language. I think he’s at least a little in awe of how much power he accidentally tosses around when he realizes that he needs a word for “sterilize” and instead of coming up with a new word, he could just toss {-qu’} on a word he already has for “clean” and… … years later, here we are, discussing and arguing and theorizing... charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Jun 21, 2019, at 2:21 AM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 20.06.2019 um 23:45 schrieb DloraH:
I wonder how [Say'chu'moH] or [Say'chu'qu'moH] would fit into this.
Setting aside the incorrect suffix order, this may be the important difference:
If you wash your car, then it's {Say'chu'}. If you sterilize something, it's {Say'qu'}.
We should not forget that although it's usually translated as "very", the suffix {-qu'} is defined as "emphatic" in TKD, saying that it "emphasizes [...] whatever immediately precedes it."
So this may mean that {Say'qu'} means more than just "very clean", it means some kind of "intensely emphasised clean", which may be interpreted as "sterile clean".
I'm not saying this aplies to ALL words combined with {-qu'}, but it may be a plausible explanation for this specific word.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Rover _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Naturally, we all know that {woj} is how you say “sterilize”, right? ;) Putting aside the real, out-of-universe explanation for that, maybe {woj} means “sterilize” in the “prevent from reproducing” sense that doesn’t make sense for {Say'qu'moH}. Or maybe one of the ways you can perform whichever sense of “sterilize” the verb {woj} means is with the noun {woj}.
On Jun 21, 2019, at 07:59, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
I’d add that, being a person who overthinks EVERYTHING, and recognizing that this trait is far more common in this group than in any other group of people that I’ve known in my life, keep in mind that we are almost certainly thinking about this much more than Okrand ever did.
It’s this trait of ours that makes him feel that he has to be really, really careful whenever he says anything about the language. I think he’s at least a little in awe of how much power he accidentally tosses around when he realizes that he needs a word for “sterilize” and instead of coming up with a new word, he could just toss {-qu’} on a word he already has for “clean” and…
… years later, here we are, discussing and arguing and theorizing...
charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan
rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 05:09, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
Naturally, we all know that {woj} is how you say “sterilize”, right? ;)
Putting aside the real, out-of-universe explanation for that, maybe {woj} means “sterilize” in the “prevent from reproducing” sense that doesn’t make sense for {Say'qu'moH}. Or maybe one of the ways you can perform whichever sense of “sterilize” the verb {woj} means is with the noun {woj}.
I imagine that this is the "in-unverse" origin of the homophony of the verb and noun {woj}: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irradiation#Sterilization -- De'vID
Since the noun {woj} means "radiation", I'd expect the verb {woj} "sterilize", to mean "make free from hazardous biological agents", instead of "make animals unable to reproduce". Surely, an animal exposed to radiation may become sterile, but usually someone would use radiation to kill bacteria, viruses, etc, rather than render an animal unable to reproduce. ~ m. qunen'oS
Am 23.06.2019 um 10:45 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
Since the noun {woj} means "radiation", I'd expect the verb {woj} "sterilize", to mean "make free from hazardous biological agents", instead of "make animals unable to reproduce".
You should also know the background story of this word, which was created only by accident based on a line-slip: htttp://www.klingonwiki.net/En/woj -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
Interesting story, and with a happy ending too ! I love stories ending with new words being created.. ~ m. qunen'oS
participants (8)
-
Alan Anderson -
Daniel Dadap -
De'vID -
DloraH -
kechpaja＠kechpaja.com -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Will Martin