I just discovered that messages sent to " tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" (rather than the official " tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" address) are not archived. For whatever reason, when someone replies to this mailing list, the address is sometimes changed to the digitalkingdom.org one. Entire subthreads are missing from the KLI archive because subsequent replies sent to this address also disappear into the memory hole. Based on my investigation, it seems that this happens to specific people, which suggests that their email client is (mis)configured to ignore the "Reply-To" address, which is always set to "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" for messages sent from the mailing list. For whatever reason, some subsequent replies *reset* the address back to " tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org", which are again archived. I did a search in my mailbox for the query " to:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org from:me" and I had sent about two dozen messages to this address. I'm not one of the people whose email clients ignore the "Reply-To", so all of my unarchived messages are replies to threads where the email address had already been changed. Unfortunately, the threads I replied to include (among other things) reconstructions of the Klingon dialogue from the first two Abrams Star Trek movies, which I presume people might be interested in being able to find in the archive. I would recommend to check your email client to see if your replies are going to the "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" address, and to check your outbox to see if you had been sending messages to " tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" instead. Some of you are sending your replies *exclusively* to this address, so that you are basically invisible in the KLI mailing list archive. (I mean, if that's what you want, that's fine, but I'm guessing this is not your intention.) -- De'vID
On Feb 19, 2019, at 21:58, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
I just discovered that messages sent to "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" (rather than the official "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" address) are not archived.
It’s actually worse than just that. Since the archive at http://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/ ends at October 2015 and the one at http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/ doesn’t begin until June 2016, there’s a temporal hole in the archive spanning several months. SuStel asked here some time ago if anybody could help him recover list mail he had lost from his personal collection: http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/2018-June/008194.html Unfortunately the time period for which he is missing messages happens to overlap with the hole in the list archives. I’m not sure whether he was able to get the messages he wanted.
Yeah, I see that several of my early messages are directed to that digitalkingdom address. And then there was the even worse problem, that when I first joined the list wasn't set up to have replies automatically go to the list, so if I didn't remember to specifically "reply all", they went to the last person who replied, rather than the list. On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 10:05 PM Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
On Feb 19, 2019, at 21:58, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
I just discovered that messages sent to " tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" (rather than the official " tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" address) are not archived.
It’s actually worse than just that. Since the archive at http://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/ ends at October 2015 and the one at http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/ doesn’t begin until June 2016, there’s a temporal hole in the archive spanning several months.
SuStel asked here some time ago if anybody could help him recover list mail he had lost from his personal collection:
http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/2018-June/008194.html
Unfortunately the time period for which he is missing messages happens to overlap with the hole in the list archives. I’m not sure whether he was able to get the messages he wanted. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
talkin gabout archives... First: there is another achive which might be interesting to check for lost mails: http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja'chuq/?1 I have no idea who is managing that page. If anyone knows, you should try contacting them, because their archive broke down in the middle of 2018. See this page with the last entries. The archive was un-subscribed automatically due to excessive bounces. Weird enough, they still get a reminder about being subscribed to the list: http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja'chuq/ -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 07:28, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
See this page with the last entries. The archive was un-subscribed automatically due to excessive bounces. Weird enough, they still get a reminder about being subscribed to the list:
Wow. Interesting. The current KLI archive is missing, e.g., the first message of the thread with subject "2018 qep'a' Wish List": http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/2018-March/thread.html The first message in the archive with that subject is this reply (where you can see the original message entirely quoted): http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/2018-March/007620.html However, this MIT archive preserves the first message in this thread, but *none* of the follow-ups: http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja'chuq/111746 Each of the KLI and MIT archives, then, has messages not found in the other. -- De'vID
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:59 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 07:28, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
See this page with the last entries. The archive was un-subscribed automatically due to excessive bounces. Weird enough, they still get a reminder about being subscribed to the list:
Wow. Interesting.
The current KLI archive is missing, e.g., the first message of the thread with subject "2018 qep'a' Wish List": http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/2018-March/thread.html
Because it was sent to the old list instead of the new one. It was the last message I got from stodi before I unsubbed from that list. I recommend that everyone send an unsubscribe message to the old list if you were ever in it. That should be just sending an email to tlhingan-hol-request@stodi.digitalkingdom.org with unsubscribe in the subject line. You can also use this page to leave that list: http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/options/tlhingan-hol The old list is not maintained by the KLI, so we have no way to shut it down, and if you send messages to the old list, only a few people will get it as folks are no longer joining that list. qurgh
Update based on feedback: If you send an unsub request to the stodi list, it will send you an email that you have to reply to. When you do that, you will need to change the reply address back to the stodi address, or it will send your request to THIS list. To bypass this, go to the website linked below, login, and use the direct unsubscribe section. It won't require email confirmation. qurgh On Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:31 AM qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:59 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 07:28, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
See this page with the last entries. The archive was un-subscribed automatically due to excessive bounces. Weird enough, they still get a reminder about being subscribed to the list:
Wow. Interesting.
The current KLI archive is missing, e.g., the first message of the thread with subject "2018 qep'a' Wish List": http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/2018-March/thread.html
Because it was sent to the old list instead of the new one. It was the last message I got from stodi before I unsubbed from that list.
I recommend that everyone send an unsubscribe message to the old list if you were ever in it. That should be just sending an email to tlhingan-hol-request@stodi.digitalkingdom.org with unsubscribe in the subject line.
You can also use this page to leave that list: http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/options/tlhingan-hol
The old list is not maintained by the KLI, so we have no way to shut it down, and if you send messages to the old list, only a few people will get it as folks are no longer joining that list.
qurgh
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 15:13, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
Update based on feedback:
If you send an unsub request to the stodi list, it will send you an email that you have to reply to. When you do that, you will need to change the reply address back to the stodi address, or it will send your request to THIS list.
To bypass this, go to the website linked below, login, and use the direct unsubscribe section. It won't require email confirmation.
Okay, but if someone had actually followed your instructions, they'd be unsubscribed from *this* mailing list now and wouldn't see your updated information, right? What'd you need to do is to send an email to the *old* mailing list, saying "If you *think* you've unsubscribed from the old mailing list but are still getting this message..." -- De'vID
I unsubscribed from the old list logging in directly to the page, but the final confirmation page said that I got unsubscribed from the tlhingan-hol@kli.org list. Does anyone see *this* message ? On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:28 PM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 15:13, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
Update based on feedback:
If you send an unsub request to the stodi list, it will send you an email that you have to reply to. When you do that, you will need to change the reply address back to the stodi address, or it will send your request to THIS list.
To bypass this, go to the website linked below, login, and use the direct unsubscribe section. It won't require email confirmation.
Okay, but if someone had actually followed your instructions, they'd be unsubscribed from *this* mailing list now and wouldn't see your updated information, right?
What'd you need to do is to send an email to the *old* mailing list, saying "If you *think* you've unsubscribed from the old mailing list but are still getting this message..."
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 20.02.2019 um 15:30 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
I unsubscribed from the old list logging in directly to the page, but the final confirmation page said that I got unsubscribed from the tlhingan-hol@kli.org list.
Does anyone see *this* message ?
Yes, I see it, and I also got that confusing response. You can check for sure at the subject line, whcih says "TlhIngan" with a capital T. THat error is fixed in the new list software. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum
Do you get a delivery report, for your mails ? As soon i unsubscribed from the old list, I stopped getting delivery reports On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:37 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 20.02.2019 um 15:30 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
I unsubscribed from the old list logging in directly to the page, but the final confirmation page said that I got unsubscribed from the tlhingan-hol@kli.org list.
Does anyone see *this* message ?
Yes, I see it, and I also got that confusing response. You can check for sure at the subject line, whcih says "TlhIngan" with a capital T. THat error is fixed in the new list software.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 20.02.2019 um 15:40 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Do you get a delivery report, for your mails ? As soon i unsubscribed from the old list, I stopped getting delivery reports
I'm not sure, but you can set a lot of such settings at the page mentioned below each message: http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
ok, thanks ! Luckily, I just got the delivery report.. maj. DaH jIleSlaH.. On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:46 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 20.02.2019 um 15:40 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Do you get a delivery report, for your mails ? As soon i unsubscribed from the old list, I stopped getting delivery reports
I'm not sure, but you can set a lot of such settings at the page mentioned below each message: http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am Mi., 20. Feb. 2019, 15:31 hat mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> geschrieben:
I unsubscribed from the old list logging in directly to the page, but the final confirmation page said that I got unsubscribed from the tlhingan-hol@kli.org list.
Does anyone see *this* message ?
QIn tetlh chu' soh 'iv? new mailing list who dis? (Okay, that joke may be too culturally specific to translate.) -- De'vID
Does anyone get delivery reports for the messages he sends ? On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:44 PM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
Am Mi., 20. Feb. 2019, 15:31 hat mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> geschrieben:
I unsubscribed from the old list logging in directly to the page, but the final confirmation page said that I got unsubscribed from the tlhingan-hol@kli.org list.
Does anyone see *this* message ?
QIn tetlh chu' soh 'iv? new mailing list who dis?
(Okay, that joke may be too culturally specific to translate.)
-- De'vID
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 9:28 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 15:13, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
Update based on feedback:
If you send an unsub request to the stodi list, it will send you an email that you have to reply to. When you do that, you will need to change the reply address back to the stodi address, or it will send your request to THIS list.
To bypass this, go to the website linked below, login, and use the direct unsubscribe section. It won't require email confirmation.
Okay, but if someone had actually followed your instructions, they'd be unsubscribed from *this* mailing list now and wouldn't see your updated information, right?
What'd you need to do is to send an email to the *old* mailing list, saying "If you *think* you've unsubscribed from the old mailing list but are still getting this message..."
I already did that this morning with instructions on how to unsubscribe by either email or website. If anyone responds to that message, it should end up coming here. So, even though I'm not on that list anymore, I should be able to help folks who get stuck. qurgh
I've just exported a mbox from my own personal archive of the list covering the entire period 2015 October 1 to 2016 June 30; it's mostly digests (a few reflector messages at the end), but it's continuous for the entire period. If it'll help close the hole in the archives, I'm willing to send it to a designated archivist. Just let me know who to send it to... On Tue, 19 Feb 2019 23:05:13 -0600, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
On Feb 19, 2019, at 21:58, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
I just discovered that messages sent to "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" (rather than the official "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" address) are not archived.
It’s actually worse than just that. Since the archive at http://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/ ends at October 2015 and the one at http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/ doesn’t begin until June 2016, there’s a temporal hole in the archive spanning several months.
SuStel asked here some time ago if anybody could help him recover list mail he had lost from his personal collection:
http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/2018-June/008194.html
Unfortunately the time period for which he is missing messages happens to overlap with the hole in the list archives. I’m not sure whether he was able to get the messages he wanted.
On 2/19/2019 10:58 PM, De'vID wrote:
I just discovered that messages sent to "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org <mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>" (rather than the official "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>" address) are not archived. [...]
I would recommend to check your email client to see if your replies are going to the "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>" address, and to check your outbox to see if you had been sending messages to "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org <mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>" instead.
I usually use Thunderbird, and I use the "Reply List" button, because list messages have a header that reads: List-Post: <mailto:tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org> Messages I send, except when I start a thread, therefore go to tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org. I manually changed the last couple of messages I sent, but generally, this is where my messages go. If this is not correct — you didn't address that one, so I'm not sure — you may want to change the List-Post header to a better address. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 1:13 PM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 2/19/2019 10:58 PM, De'vID wrote:
I just discovered that messages sent to " tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" (rather than the official " tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" address) are not archived. [...]
I would recommend to check your email client to see if your replies are going to the "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" address, and to check your outbox to see if you had been sending messages to " tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" instead.
I usually use Thunderbird, and I use the "Reply List" button, because list messages have a header that reads:
List-Post: <mailto:tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org> <tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org>
Messages I send, except when I start a thread, therefore go to tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org. I manually changed the last couple of messages I sent, but generally, this is where my messages go.
If this is not correct — you didn't address that one, so I'm not sure — you may want to change the List-Post header to a better address
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org is the full name of the address for this list, with tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org being an alias of that address. Sending to either of these is fine. Just avoid the digitalkingdom.org address. qurgh
My attempts to follow the unsubscribing instructions have all met with auto replies explaining that I've failed. Alas, my inbox is full of too much else today for me to put more time into it.
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 19:13, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 2/19/2019 10:58 PM, De'vID wrote:
I just discovered that messages sent to " tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" (rather than the official " tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" address) are not archived. [...]
I would recommend to check your email client to see if your replies are going to the "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" address, and to check your outbox to see if you had been sending messages to " tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" instead.
I usually use Thunderbird, and I use the "Reply List" button, because list messages have a header that reads:
List-Post: <mailto:tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org> <tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org>
Messages I send, except when I start a thread, therefore go to tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org. I manually changed the last couple of messages I sent, but generally, this is where my messages go.
If this is not correct — you didn't address that one, so I'm not sure — you may want to change the List-Post header to a better address.
Actually, you're one of the people who had been sending messages to the " tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" address, at least prior to 2014: not as "sustel@trimboli.name", but as "david@trimboli.name". These messages are not in the archive. -- De'vID
On 2/20/2019 5:23 PM, De'vID wrote:
Actually, you're one of the people who had been sending messages to the "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org <mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>" address, at least prior to 2014: not as "sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>", but as "david@trimboli.name <mailto:david@trimboli.name>". These messages are not in the archive.
Yes, five years ago I was using a different address with a different subscription. That's not relevant now and not what I'm talking about. There's nothing anyone can do about lost messages; I'm concerned about messages in the future. And I was sending to that address because that is what we were told was the correct address. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (9)
-
Christa Hansberry -
Daniel Dadap -
De'vID -
Jeff Zeitlin -
Lawrence M. Schoen -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunenoS -
qurgh lungqIj -
SuStel