Often, I come across the need to express the context of "first/at first/initially etc". As in "first, I want you to know.." Can this meaning be expressed by the use of {wa'DIch} ? I think I had read somewhere in the klingon language wiki, that this could indeed be done, but I don't remember the exact link of the page where I read it, so I can't be certain. qunnoq
There are several possibilities, for which we also have canonical sentences, {bI'reS} and also {wa'DIch} used as time stamps: {bI'reS} 'beginning, prologue, first, initially, after' (used also as a time stamp at the beginning of the sentence) 1) bI'reS qeylIS vaq molor. «First, Molor taunts Kahless.» 2) may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon. «First, he watches the battle smiling.» 3) tera' DIS wa' Hut vagh Hut, bI'reS puv 'amerI'qa' 'ev chan 'ev X-wa'maH vagh. muDDaq neH muD Dujmey vorgh lu'orlu', 'ach loghDaq puvlaH Dujmey 'orbogh nuv 'e' 'agh X-wa'maH vagh. «The North American X-15, initially flown in 1959, bridged the gap between piloted flight in the atmosphere and piloted space flight.» {wa'DIch} 'first, original, at first' 4) wa'DIch nach 'ay'... «First Nach, the form of the head, ...» 5) wa'DIch Hegh moratlh. «First, Morath fell.» So it seems, both are fine. I also do not see a semantic difference between them. Also consider {-pa'} 'before', which you could use for English "first", e.g. "If we want to open this door, we first need a key." --> "Before we open this door, we require its key." Greetings from Zurich, - André 2017-08-23 14:12 GMT+02:00 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>:
Often, I come across the need to express the context of "first/at first/initially etc". As in "first, I want you to know.."
Can this meaning be expressed by the use of {wa'DIch} ? I think I had read somewhere in the klingon language wiki, that this could indeed be done, but I don't remember the exact link of the page where I read it, so I can't be certain.
qunnoq
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Thanks for replying. Initially, I thought of using {bI'reS}, however there was a problem with regards to the fact, that the canon sentences which use it don't employ punctuation. So, here is the problem..
1) bI'reS qeylIS vaq molor. «First, Molor taunts Kahless.»
If this sentence was meant to be {bI'reS, qeylIS vaq molor}, then I could understand it as a timestamp. "First, Molor taunts Kahless". But since paq'batlh doesn't employ punctuation, there is the possibility that this sentence was meant to be {bI'reS. qeylIS vaq molor}. So now the translation becomes "Beginning of the story. Molor taunts Kahless". Or maybe even "Beginning of the story: Molor taunts Kahless".
2) may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon. «First, he watches the battle smiling.»
This is even more confusing. If the {bI'reS} here was meant to be a timestamp, then the klingon sentence should be {bI'reS may' bejtaHvIS mon}. Let alone the fact, that even in this case, without the punctuation we would have the ambiguities discussed at the "First, Molor taunts Kahless" sentence. At the original paq'batlh sentence, If {may'} is the object of {bej}, then why isn't it placed right before it ? The way I understand this sentence is {may' bI'reS, bejtaHvIS mon} "The beginning of the battle while he is watching (it) he smiles".
3) tera' DIS wa' Hut vagh Hut, bI'reS puv 'amerI'qa' 'ev chan 'ev > X-wa'maH vagh. muDDaq neH muD Dujmey vorgh lu'orlu', 'ach loghDaq puvlaH Dujmey 'orbogh nuv 'e' 'agh X-wa'maH vagh. «The North American X-15, initially flown in 1959, bridged the gap between piloted flight in the atmosphere and piloted space flight.»
If the punctuation of this sentence was written by 'oqranD (was it ?), then here I can understand the {bI'reS} indeed being used as a timestamp. If however the punctuation wasn't written by 'oqranD, and if the "," wasn't placed before the {bI'reS} by him, then there could be the possibility that the {bI'reS} refers to the "1959", to mean "at the beginning of 1959".
4) wa'DIch nach 'ay'... «First Nach, the form of the head, ...»
I can't understand this sentence at all. All I get is "First, part of the head.."
5) wa'DIch Hegh moratlh. «First, Morath fell.»
I could understand this being the use of {wa'DIch} as a timestamp, as long as this sentence isn't the first of a group of sentences where numbering takes place (is it ?). For example "First, Morath fell, second kahless laughed, third the blade glowed etc.." qunnoq On Aug 23, 2017 5:08 PM, "André Müller" <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
There are several possibilities, for which we also have canonical sentences, {bI'reS} and also {wa'DIch} used as time stamps:
{bI'reS} 'beginning, prologue, first, initially, after' (used also as a time stamp at the beginning of the sentence)
1) bI'reS qeylIS vaq molor. «First, Molor taunts Kahless.»
2) may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon. «First, he watches the battle smiling.»
3) tera' DIS wa' Hut vagh Hut, bI'reS puv 'amerI'qa' 'ev chan 'ev X-wa'maH vagh. muDDaq neH muD Dujmey vorgh lu'orlu', 'ach loghDaq puvlaH Dujmey 'orbogh nuv 'e' 'agh X-wa'maH vagh. «The North American X-15, initially flown in 1959, bridged the gap between piloted flight in the atmosphere and piloted space flight.»
{wa'DIch} 'first, original, at first'
4) wa'DIch nach 'ay'... «First Nach, the form of the head, ...»
5) wa'DIch Hegh moratlh. «First, Morath fell.»
So it seems, both are fine. I also do not see a semantic difference between them.
Also consider {-pa'} 'before', which you could use for English "first", e.g. "If we want to open this door, we first need a key." --> "Before we open this door, we require its key."
Greetings from Zurich, - André
2017-08-23 14:12 GMT+02:00 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>:
Often, I come across the need to express the context of "first/at first/initially etc". As in "first, I want you to know.."
Can this meaning be expressed by the use of {wa'DIch} ? I think I had read somewhere in the klingon language wiki, that this could indeed be done, but I don't remember the exact link of the page where I read it, so I can't be certain.
qunnoq
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On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 11:02 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
But since paq'batlh doesn't employ punctuation, there is the possibility that this sentence was meant to be {bI'reS. qeylIS vaq molor}. So now the translation becomes "Beginning of the story. Molor taunts Kahless". Or maybe even "Beginning of the story: Molor taunts Kahless".
This scene doesn't take place at the beginning of the story, or anywhere near it.
2) may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon. «First, he watches the battle smiling.»
This is even more confusing.
A lot of times a line from the paq'batlh is not a complete sentence, and the rest of the sentence is in the preceding or following line: chalqachDajvo' QaSDaj bej may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon But that doesn't clear it up either. Musta been a late night in the translation mines, I guess. If the punctuation of this sentence was written by 'oqranD (was it ?), then
here I can understand the {bI'reS} indeed being used as a timestamp.
If however the punctuation wasn't written by 'oqranD, and if the "," wasn't placed before the {bI'reS} by him, then there could be the possibility that the {bI'reS} refers to the "1959", to mean "at the beginning of 1959".
Okrand did the translations for the museum audio and he does his own punctuation. You might be worrying too much about punctuation here. (Also, the first flight of the X-15 was in June 1959.)
4) wa'DIch nach 'ay'... «First Nach, the form of the head, ...»
I can't understand this sentence at all. All I get is "First, part of the head.."
It's from a part of the paq'batlh where Kahless is demonstrating various mok'bara moves to his father and brother in Gre'thor. It has sort of a mystical, ritualistic feel, and is mostly sentence fragments. I don't have the paq'batlh with me at the moment, but fortunately this part and its translation were posted to the list a few months ago:
wa'DIch nach 'ay' cha'DIch ghIv 'ay' wejDIch burgh 'ay' loSDIch bIng 'ay' vaghDIch Dung 'ay' tagha' tIq Hoch botlh Hochlogh Dat joqtaHjaj
*First Nach, the form of the head.*
*Then Ghiv, the form of the legs and arms.*
*Then Burgh, the form of the stomach.*
*Then Bing, the form of the space above and below. *
*Then Dung, the space beside.*
*And finally Tiq, the heart and center of all things,* *May it forever beat, anywhere.* (paq'raD, canto 3, lines 10-16, p102)
(Note that the English doesn't quite get the meaning of Klingon positional
nouns.)
From: nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] wa'DIch
4) wa'DIch nach 'ay'...> «First Nach, the form of the head, ...» I can't understand this sentence at all. All I get is "First, part of the head.."
It's from a part of the paq'batlh where Kahless is demonstrating various mok'bara moves to his father and brother in Gre'thor. It has sort of a mystical, ritualistic feel, and is mostly sentence fragments. I don't have the paq'batlh with me at the moment, but fortunately this part and its translation were posted to the list a few months ago: wa'DIch nach 'ay' cha'DIch ghIv 'ay' wejDIch burgh 'ay' loSDIch bIng 'ay' vaghDIch Dung 'ay' tagha' tIq Hoch botlh Hochlogh Dat joqtaHjaj First Nach, the form of the head. Then Ghiv, the form of the legs and arms. Then Burgh, the form of the stomach. Then Bing, the form of the space above and below. Then Dung, the space beside. And finally Tiq, the heart and center of all things, May it forever beat, anywhere. (paq'raD, canto 3, lines 10-16, p102) Has anyone ever equated any mok'bara moves to actual martial or Qi Gung movements? ter'eS _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 23.08.2017 um 17:02 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
2) may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon. «First, he watches the battle smiling.»
This is even more confusing. If the {bI'reS} here was meant to be a timestamp, then the klingon sentence should be {bI'reS may' bejtaHvIS mon}. Let alone the fact, that even in this case, without the punctuation we would have the ambiguities discussed at the "First, Molor taunts Kahless" sentence.
No, not neccessary. You can see {may' bI'reS} as the time stamp: "At the beginning of the battle, he watches smiling". WHat I think was that it says "He smiles while watching the bgining of the battle" - and it's the english which does not fit perfectly.
I can't understand this sentence at all. All I get is "First, part of the head.."
It's literally "the head part". It's not a sentence, but a listing, talking about connecting body parts in some ritual. You understand when you see the following lines: wa'DIch nach 'ay' cha'DIch ghIv 'ay' wejDIch burgh 'ay' loSDIch bIng 'ay' vaghDIch Dung 'ay' [...] PB, / p. 102
5) wa'DIch Hegh moratlh. «First, Morath fell.»
I could understand this being the use of {wa'DIch} as a timestamp, as long as this sentence isn't the first of a group of sentences where numbering takes place (is it ?).
Yes, indeed. Few lines later it says {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}. (PB p 149.) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Paqbatlh
lieven:
Yes, indeed. Few lines later it says {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}. (PB p 149.
For the noble reason of helping someone who may be reading this thread, and for the selfish reason of helping myself whenever I may read this again in the future, here is the relevant text: wa'DIch Hegh moratlh wej SuvwI' SuvtaHvIS mongDaj DuQlu' 'ej Hegh ghIq Hegh qanjIt qeylIS retlhDaq Suv wa' jagh HoHta' HeghtaHvIS The interesting thing here, is that we have {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}, and not {cha'DIch Hegh qanjIt}. "First/at first/initially" {wa'DIch} happens whatever, and "then/subsequently" {ghIq} something also happens. So, from this, it is clear that {wa'DIch} can be used in the sense of "first/at first/initially etc". qunnoq On Aug 24, 2017 2:40 PM, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 23.08.2017 um 17:02 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
2) may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon. «First, he watches the battle smiling.»
This is even more confusing. If the {bI'reS} here was meant to be a timestamp, then the klingon sentence should be {bI'reS may' bejtaHvIS mon}. Let alone the fact, that even in this case, without the punctuation we would have the ambiguities discussed at the "First, Molor taunts Kahless" sentence.
No, not neccessary. You can see {may' bI'reS} as the time stamp: "At the beginning of the battle, he watches smiling". WHat I think was that it says "He smiles while watching the bgining of the battle" - and it's the english which does not fit perfectly.
I can't understand this sentence at all. All I get is "First, part of the
head.."
It's literally "the head part". It's not a sentence, but a listing, talking about connecting body parts in some ritual. You understand when you see the following lines: wa'DIch nach 'ay' cha'DIch ghIv 'ay' wejDIch burgh 'ay' loSDIch bIng 'ay' vaghDIch Dung 'ay' [...] PB, / p. 102
5) wa'DIch Hegh moratlh.
«First, Morath fell.»
I could understand this being the use of {wa'DIch} as a timestamp, as long as this sentence isn't the first of a group of sentences where numbering takes place (is it ?).
Yes, indeed. Few lines later it says {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}. (PB p 149.)
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Paqbatlh _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
As long as it's listing steps, it works for all the numbers, as that's what ordinal numbers are for: wa'DIch Soj vISop cha'DIch HIq vItlhutlh wejDIch jagh vIHIv ghIq jIQong First I eat the food Second I drink the wine Third I attack the enemy Then I sleep qurgh On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 11:19 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
lieven:
Yes, indeed. Few lines later it says {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}. (PB p 149.
For the noble reason of helping someone who may be reading this thread, and for the selfish reason of helping myself whenever I may read this again in the future, here is the relevant text:
wa'DIch Hegh moratlh wej SuvwI' SuvtaHvIS mongDaj DuQlu' 'ej Hegh
ghIq Hegh qanjIt qeylIS retlhDaq Suv wa' jagh HoHta' HeghtaHvIS
The interesting thing here, is that we have {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}, and not {cha'DIch Hegh qanjIt}.
"First/at first/initially" {wa'DIch} happens whatever, and "then/subsequently" {ghIq} something also happens.
So, from this, it is clear that {wa'DIch} can be used in the sense of "first/at first/initially etc".
qunnoq
On Aug 24, 2017 2:40 PM, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 23.08.2017 um 17:02 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
2) may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon. «First, he watches the battle smiling.»
This is even more confusing. If the {bI'reS} here was meant to be a timestamp, then the klingon sentence should be {bI'reS may' bejtaHvIS mon}. Let alone the fact, that even in this case, without the punctuation we would have the ambiguities discussed at the "First, Molor taunts Kahless" sentence.
No, not neccessary. You can see {may' bI'reS} as the time stamp: "At the beginning of the battle, he watches smiling". WHat I think was that it says "He smiles while watching the bgining of the battle" - and it's the english which does not fit perfectly.
I can't understand this sentence at all. All I get is "First, part of the
head.."
It's literally "the head part". It's not a sentence, but a listing, talking about connecting body parts in some ritual. You understand when you see the following lines: wa'DIch nach 'ay' cha'DIch ghIv 'ay' wejDIch burgh 'ay' loSDIch bIng 'ay' vaghDIch Dung 'ay' [...] PB, / p. 102
5) wa'DIch Hegh moratlh.
«First, Morath fell.»
I could understand this being the use of {wa'DIch} as a timestamp, as long as this sentence isn't the first of a group of sentences where numbering takes place (is it ?).
Yes, indeed. Few lines later it says {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}. (PB p 149.)
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Paqbatlh _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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qurgh:
As long as it's listing steps, it works for all the numbers, as that's what ordinal numbers are for:
This is very interesting indeed, and I hadn't thought of this application of ordinals in conjunction with {ghIq}. Thanks for sharing ! qunnoq On Aug 25, 2017 6:28 PM, "qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
As long as it's listing steps, it works for all the numbers, as that's what ordinal numbers are for:
wa'DIch Soj vISop cha'DIch HIq vItlhutlh wejDIch jagh vIHIv ghIq jIQong
First I eat the food Second I drink the wine Third I attack the enemy Then I sleep
qurgh
On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 11:19 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
lieven:
Yes, indeed. Few lines later it says {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}. (PB p 149.
For the noble reason of helping someone who may be reading this thread, and for the selfish reason of helping myself whenever I may read this again in the future, here is the relevant text:
wa'DIch Hegh moratlh wej SuvwI' SuvtaHvIS mongDaj DuQlu' 'ej Hegh
ghIq Hegh qanjIt qeylIS retlhDaq Suv wa' jagh HoHta' HeghtaHvIS
The interesting thing here, is that we have {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}, and not {cha'DIch Hegh qanjIt}.
"First/at first/initially" {wa'DIch} happens whatever, and "then/subsequently" {ghIq} something also happens.
So, from this, it is clear that {wa'DIch} can be used in the sense of "first/at first/initially etc".
qunnoq
On Aug 24, 2017 2:40 PM, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 23.08.2017 um 17:02 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
2) may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon. «First, he watches the battle smiling.»
This is even more confusing. If the {bI'reS} here was meant to be a timestamp, then the klingon sentence should be {bI'reS may' bejtaHvIS mon}. Let alone the fact, that even in this case, without the punctuation we would have the ambiguities discussed at the "First, Molor taunts Kahless" sentence.
No, not neccessary. You can see {may' bI'reS} as the time stamp: "At the beginning of the battle, he watches smiling". WHat I think was that it says "He smiles while watching the bgining of the battle" - and it's the english which does not fit perfectly.
I can't understand this sentence at all. All I get is "First, part of
the head.."
It's literally "the head part". It's not a sentence, but a listing, talking about connecting body parts in some ritual. You understand when you see the following lines: wa'DIch nach 'ay' cha'DIch ghIv 'ay' wejDIch burgh 'ay' loSDIch bIng 'ay' vaghDIch Dung 'ay' [...] PB, / p. 102
5) wa'DIch Hegh moratlh.
«First, Morath fell.»
I could understand this being the use of {wa'DIch} as a timestamp, as long as this sentence isn't the first of a group of sentences where numbering takes place (is it ?).
Yes, indeed. Few lines later it says {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}. (PB p 149.)
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Paqbatlh _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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And thinking of this further, we could do something similar with {ngugh}: wa'DIch De'wI' vIchu' cha'DIch jIH vIbej wejDIch tagh much ngugh jIQongchoH First I turn on the computer Second I watch the screen Third the movie starts (and) then/at that time I fall asleep This could also be done with {tagha'} too: wa'DIch De'wI' vIchu' cha'DIch jIH vIbej wejDIch tagh much tagha' jIQongchoH First I turn on the computer Second I watch the screen Third the movie starts (and) finally I fall asleep qunnoq On Aug 25, 2017 6:32 PM, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
qurgh:
As long as it's listing steps, it works for all the numbers, as that's what ordinal numbers are for:
This is very interesting indeed, and I hadn't thought of this application of ordinals in conjunction with {ghIq}.
Thanks for sharing !
qunnoq
On Aug 25, 2017 6:28 PM, "qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
As long as it's listing steps, it works for all the numbers, as that's what ordinal numbers are for:
wa'DIch Soj vISop cha'DIch HIq vItlhutlh wejDIch jagh vIHIv ghIq jIQong
First I eat the food Second I drink the wine Third I attack the enemy Then I sleep
qurgh
On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 11:19 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
lieven:
Yes, indeed. Few lines later it says {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}. (PB p 149.
For the noble reason of helping someone who may be reading this thread, and for the selfish reason of helping myself whenever I may read this again in the future, here is the relevant text:
wa'DIch Hegh moratlh wej SuvwI' SuvtaHvIS mongDaj DuQlu' 'ej Hegh
ghIq Hegh qanjIt qeylIS retlhDaq Suv wa' jagh HoHta' HeghtaHvIS
The interesting thing here, is that we have {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}, and not {cha'DIch Hegh qanjIt}.
"First/at first/initially" {wa'DIch} happens whatever, and "then/subsequently" {ghIq} something also happens.
So, from this, it is clear that {wa'DIch} can be used in the sense of "first/at first/initially etc".
qunnoq
On Aug 24, 2017 2:40 PM, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 23.08.2017 um 17:02 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
2) may' bI'reS bejtaHvIS mon. «First, he watches the battle smiling.»
This is even more confusing. If the {bI'reS} here was meant to be a timestamp, then the klingon sentence should be {bI'reS may' bejtaHvIS mon}. Let alone the fact, that even in this case, without the punctuation we would have the ambiguities discussed at the "First, Molor taunts Kahless" sentence.
No, not neccessary. You can see {may' bI'reS} as the time stamp: "At the beginning of the battle, he watches smiling". WHat I think was that it says "He smiles while watching the bgining of the battle" - and it's the english which does not fit perfectly.
I can't understand this sentence at all. All I get is "First, part of
the head.."
It's literally "the head part". It's not a sentence, but a listing, talking about connecting body parts in some ritual. You understand when you see the following lines: wa'DIch nach 'ay' cha'DIch ghIv 'ay' wejDIch burgh 'ay' loSDIch bIng 'ay' vaghDIch Dung 'ay' [...] PB, / p. 102
5) wa'DIch Hegh moratlh.
«First, Morath fell.»
I could understand this being the use of {wa'DIch} as a timestamp, as long as this sentence isn't the first of a group of sentences where numbering takes place (is it ?).
Yes, indeed. Few lines later it says {ghIq Hegh qanjIt}. (PB p 149.)
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Paqbatlh _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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participants (6)
-
André Müller -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
qurgh lungqIj -
Terrence Donnelly