One of the most common mistakes of using aspect, is using it as tense. Which is a mistake I tend to often do.. But the problem is, that when I'm doing this mistake, I don't even realize it. So, could someone write a few examples, where aspect is being used as tense, as an example of what to actually avoid ? mayqel *I love maltz* qunen'oS
On 12/27/2018 11:06 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
So, could someone write a few examples, where aspect is being used as tense, as an example of what to actually avoid ?
You can look at "imperfect" tenses. English doesn't have them as a verb form, but lots of other languages do. I think Greek does. *naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt */In my youth I walked on the beach./ My intention here is to imply that I used to walk on the beach; it was my habit to walk on the beach in my youth. Because we're not talking about a specific action that was finished, but a habit or tendency, this is imperfect. It is not describing a particular action I completed. If I said *naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyItpu' */In my youth I walked on the beach,/ I would be saying that in my youth there was this one time when I took a walk on the beach, and completed the walk. It could not be used to refer to your habit of walking every day. *wa' ben Ha'DIbaH vISopbe' */I didn't eat meat last year./ This describes the general fact of my meatlessness last year, not any particular act of eating. It is not describing an action that is completed. If I said *wa' ben Ha'DIbaH vISopbe'pu' */I didn't eat the meat last year./ This would be referring to some instance in which I was offered meat and refused it. An occasion to eat meat arose, and I completed not eating it. I always hesistate to refer to a Klingon verb with no type 7 suffix as /imperfect,/ because it's not necessarily exactly what any other language means by the term, and the word doesn't say anything about continuousness. In English, a verb is often considered imperfect if it's in a progressive tense, and these are often reflective of continuous action. This is why I usually resort to the cumbersome /non-perfective, non-continuous/ or some variation thereof. One more, taken from early canon. Kruge says to Valkris, *vaj Daleghpu' */Then you have seen it./ He pitches it as a question without giving it an interrogative suffix, but that's not important. He's referring to an action Valkris did in the past and completed. If he had said *vaj Dalegh */Then you see it,/ and if it wasn't taken as clipped Klingon, Valkris would probably take this as asking if she's looking at it right now. When not set in the past or future, a perfectiveless verb may be taken as occurring in the moment. Exactly how you interpret a verb without a type 7 suffix depends heavily on the context of the sentence, but barring some exceptions it cannot be interpreted as a specific action that was actually completed. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt In my youth I walked on the beach. My intention here is to imply that I used to walk on the beach; it was my habit to walk on the beach in my youth
If this sentence describes a habit taking place during youth, then shouldn't the sentence be {qaStaHvIS naH jajmeywIj, bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt} ? The way I would understand {naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt}, is that "in my youth, once I walk on the beach". SuStel:
If I said naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyItpu' In my youth I walked on the beach, I would be saying that in my youth there was this one time when I took a walk on the beach, and completed the walk. It could not be used to refer to your habit of walking every day.
ok, I understand this; and I understand why there's no need for {qaStaHvIS}. SuStel:
wa' ben Ha'DIbaH vISopbe' I didn't eat meat last year. This describes the general fact of my meatlessness last year
Again, the absence of {qaStaHvIS} confuses me. If during the last year I didn't eat meat, then shouldn't this be {qaStaHvIS DIS vorgh, Ha'DIbaH vISopbe'} ? The way I understand {wa' ben Ha'DIbaH vISopbe'} is "one year ago, one time I don't eat meat" SuStel:
If I said wa' ben Ha'DIbaH vISopbe'pu' I didn't eat the meat last year. This would be referring to some instance in which I was offered meat and refused it.
I understand this; but is there any particular reason you chose to write {vISopbe'pu'} instead of {vISoppu'be'} ? mayqel *I love maltz* qunen'oS
On 12/27/2018 1:05 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt In my youth I walked on the beach. My intention here is to imply that I used to walk on the beach; it was my habit to walk on the beach in my youth If this sentence describes a habit taking place during youth, then shouldn't the sentence be {qaStaHvIS naH jajmeywIj, bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt} ?
The way I would understand {naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt}, is that "in my youth, once I walk on the beach".
*qaStaHvIS* isn't some magical invocation, and has no special status in grammar. *-vIS* just means that while one thing is happening, another thing happens. If I had said, *jIQuptaHvIS bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt,* you'd have no trouble seeing that as /When I was young I would walk on the beach/, as if it's a habit. Why should /While such-and-such period of time occurs/ be any different? You /can/ use the *qaStaHvIS,* but you don't need to. The sentence /could/ be interpreted as /In my youth I walk on the beach,/ but only if you're conceptually casting yourself back in time to those heady vegetable days. Ah, it's like I'm there now. It's my youth. I wake up and smell the sea-air. I take a walk along the beach. A crab suddenly takes a bite out of my foot. You've put yourself in the moment, and you're relating it as if you're there right now. As you state each of those actions, you haven't finished them. As I said, how you interpret an aspectless verb depends strongly on context.
SuStel:
If I said wa' ben Ha'DIbaH vISopbe'pu' I didn't eat the meat last year. This would be referring to some instance in which I was offered meat and refused it. I understand this; but is there any particular reason you chose to write {vISopbe'pu'} instead of {vISoppu'be'} ?
No particular reason. I believe they are synonymous. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt In my youth I walked on the beach. My intention here is to imply that I used to walk on the beach; it was my habit to walk on the beach in my youth jIH: If this sentence describes a habit taking place during youth, then shouldn't the sentence be {qaStaHvIS naH jajmeywIj, bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt} ? The way I would understand {naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt}, is that "in my youth, once I walk on the beach". SuStel: The sentence could be interpreted as In my youth I walk on the beach, but only if you're conceptually casting yourself back in time to those heady vegetable days.
I'm rather confused here.. In your original sentence, i.e. {naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt}, your intended meaning was the stating of an action while conceptually casting yourself back in time at that moment ? At a moment of a specific walk on the beach, where a crab bites your foot ? An action/event which took place only once ? Or was the intended meaning that while you were young you were habitually walking on a beach ? i.e. describing an event which was happening regularly ? But an event you're actually re-living at the time of the narration of the sentence ? Or was the intended meaning, the description of a habitual event which was happening regularly, but without re-living it at the time that the sentence is spoken ? mayqel *I love maltz* qunen'oS
On 12/28/2018 6:14 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt In my youth I walked on the beach. My intention here is to imply that I used to walk on the beach; it was my habit to walk on the beach in my youth jIH: If this sentence describes a habit taking place during youth, then shouldn't the sentence be {qaStaHvIS naH jajmeywIj, bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt} ? The way I would understand {naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt}, is that "in my youth, once I walk on the beach". SuStel: The sentence could be interpreted as In my youth I walk on the beach, but only if you're conceptually casting yourself back in time to those heady vegetable days. I'm rather confused here..
In your original sentence, i.e. {naH jajmeywIj bIQ'a' HeHDaq jIyIt}, your intended meaning was the stating of an action while conceptually casting yourself back in time at that moment ? At a moment of a specific walk on the beach, where a crab bites your foot ? An action/event which took place only once ?
Or was the intended meaning that while you were young you were habitually walking on a beach ? i.e. describing an event which was happening regularly ? But an event you're actually re-living at the time of the narration of the sentence ?
Or was the intended meaning, the description of a habitual event which was happening regularly, but without re-living it at the time that the sentence is spoken ?
The point is that there isn't a single meaning to a verb that doesn't have a type 7 suffix; it can be interpreted in lots of ways, depending on the context. You must apply the associated context to get the correct meaning. Two ways it /can't/ be interpreted, though, are perfective and continuous. Look, the rules are just what's in TKD. When an action described is a completed action, you must use a perfective suffix; you can't drop it. When an action described is a continuous action, you must use a continuous suffix; you can't drop it. For everything else, use no aspect suffix. Completed or continuous from what point of view? Every sentence has a point of view that may or may not be the same as the time context or the speaker's present. *wa'leS qaHoHta'*/Tomorrow I will have killed you/ takes as its viewpoint a moment tomorrow after my killing of you. "Place yourself in the moment after my killing you tomorrow. I shall now describe what you see: /I have killed you./" *wa'leS qaHoHtaHvIS*//*jImon*/While I'm killing you tomorrow/ /I smile/ forces the viewpoint to be a slightly earlier point, still tomorrow, but during the act of killing you. It's specifically at the moment I smile. *wa'leS qaHoH* /I will kill you tomorrow/ has right now as the viewpoint, and is looking ahead to a hypothetical action — being hypothetical, it certainly isn't completed. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
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