Maltz has answered some of my questions while watching Discovery which I don't want to keep secret from you any longer. I'm sending them in individual messages to keep the subject line separated. To talk about "growing plants" (i.e. plant them and making them grow), Okrand suggested to use {wIj} "farm". I asked for {chep}, but he said that {chep} does not work with plants. When I asked for a phrase like "you are responsible for his actions" or "you are responsible for [someting]". Maltz gave use the verb {rang} "be responsible for". The word for "volcano" is {qulHuD}. No space. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Maltz
Thank you Lieven for sharing the new words :) I'd like to ask one quick question though: [ngoy'] is also listed as meaning "be responsible" and the boQwI' gives us an example from TKW p155 vangDI' tlhIngan SuvwI' ngoy' qorDu'Daj, vangDI' qorDu'Daj ngoy' tlhIngan SuvwI' What's the difference between [rang] and [ngoy'] in meaning and usage? Thanks in advance! ghItlhjaj Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy. -------- Message d'origine --------De : "Lieven L. Litaer" <levinius@gmx.de> Date : 01/02/2018 17:27 (GMT+01:00) À : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Objet : [tlhIngan Hol] be responsible Maltz has answered some of my questions while watching Discovery which I don't want to keep secret from you any longer. I'm sending them in individual messages to keep the subject line separated. To talk about "growing plants" (i.e. plant them and making them grow), Okrand suggested to use {wIj} "farm". I asked for {chep}, but he said that {chep} does not work with plants. When I asked for a phrase like "you are responsible for his actions" or "you are responsible for [someting]". Maltz gave use the verb {rang} "be responsible for". The word for "volcano" is {qulHuD}. No space. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Maltz _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 2/1/2018 11:47 AM, demonchaux.aurelie wrote:
Thank you Lieven for sharing the new words :)
I'd like to ask one quick question though:
[ngoy'] is also listed as meaning "be responsible" and the boQwI' gives us an example from TKW p155
vangDI' tlhIngan SuvwI' ngoy' qorDu'Daj, vangDI' qorDu'Daj ngoy' tlhIngan SuvwI'
What's the difference between [rang] and [ngoy'] in meaning and usage?
Thanks in advance!
ghItlhjaj
I'm going to guess the difference is in the object it can use. You can say *Duj rang HoD* but not **Duj ngoy' HoD,* though you can say *Duj rang HoD; ngoy' HoD.* But then, you can also say just *rang HoD.* I wonder if Okrand forgot we had *ngoy'.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 01.02.2018 um 17:50 schrieb SuStel:
I'm going to guess the difference is in the object it can use. You can say *Duj rang HoD* but not **Duj ngoy' HoD,* though you can say *Duj rang HoD; ngoy' HoD.* But then, you can also say just *rang HoD.* I wonder if Okrand forgot we had *ngoy'.*
That's possible, but I doubt he would admit it. There will certainly be an interesting story around it. We have that with many words. -- but that's what makes the language so interesting. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
Am 01.02.2018 um 17:50 schrieb SuStel:
[ngoy'] is also listed as meaning "be responsible" [...] What's the difference between [rang] and [ngoy'] in meaning and usage?
ja' SuStel:
I'm going to guess the difference is in the object it can use. You can say *Duj rang HoD* but not **Duj ngoy' HoD,* though you can say *Duj rang HoD; ngoy' HoD.* But then, you can also say just *rang HoD.* I wonder if Okrand forgot we had *ngoy'.*
I asked, and he did not. He explained what you said, that {rang} can have an object, and from his explanation, I also read that rang should not be used as an adjective. Say {Duj rang HoD ngoy} "The responsible captain is rsponsible for his ship". Here's the entire message: ----begin quote--------------------- I knew about {ngoy'} (so did Maltz). The grammatical difference is that {rang} can take an object (the thing the subject is responsible for) -- and it would be weird for it not to have an object -- while {ngoy'} can't. {rang} means things like "be in charge of, have authority over." {ngoy'} means things like "be accountable, be answerable." It can also be used to mean "be responsible" in the sense of "be trustworthy, sensible, dependable." So a boss is responsible for his/her workers' actions (or responsible for the factory or whatever); he/she is in charge of the workplace, has authority over the workers, maybe is controlling the workers. This is {rang}. If something goes wrong, who's to blame? Who's accountable? Whom do the higher-ups come down hard on? The boss -- because he/she is the responsible party ({ngoy'}). As the use of {ngoy'} in the TKW example shows, however, the meanings overlap, so the choice may be based on what the rest of the sentence is (is there an object or not?), not just meaning. ----end quote----------------------- -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Maltz
Thanks very much for clarifying, the difference is clear to me now :) ghItlhjaj Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy. -------- Message d'origine --------De : "Lieven L. Litaer" <levinius@gmx.de> Date : 02/02/2018 08:13 (GMT+01:00) À : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Objet : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] be responsible Am 01.02.2018 um 17:50 schrieb SuStel:
[ngoy'] is also listed as meaning "be responsible" [...] What's the difference between [rang] and [ngoy'] in meaning and usage?
ja' SuStel:
I'm going to guess the difference is in the object it can use. You can say *Duj rang HoD* but not **Duj ngoy' HoD,* though you can say *Duj rang HoD; ngoy' HoD.* But then, you can also say just *rang HoD.* I wonder if Okrand forgot we had *ngoy'.*
I asked, and he did not. He explained what you said, that {rang} can have an object, and from his explanation, I also read that rang should not be used as an adjective. Say {Duj rang HoD ngoy} "The responsible captain is rsponsible for his ship". Here's the entire message: ----begin quote--------------------- I knew about {ngoy'} (so did Maltz). The grammatical difference is that {rang} can take an object (the thing the subject is responsible for) -- and it would be weird for it not to have an object -- while {ngoy'} can't. {rang} means things like "be in charge of, have authority over." {ngoy'} means things like "be accountable, be answerable." It can also be used to mean "be responsible" in the sense of "be trustworthy, sensible, dependable." So a boss is responsible for his/her workers' actions (or responsible for the factory or whatever); he/she is in charge of the workplace, has authority over the workers, maybe is controlling the workers. This is {rang}. If something goes wrong, who's to blame? Who's accountable? Whom do the higher-ups come down hard on? The boss -- because he/she is the responsible party ({ngoy'}). As the use of {ngoy'} in the TKW example shows, however, the meanings overlap, so the choice may be based on what the rest of the sentence is (is there an object or not?), not just meaning. ----end quote----------------------- -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Maltz _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Continued thanks for sharing the new words and your discussions with Maltz. Quick question: Why did you suggest chep prosper, be prosperous for growing plants? Does it have a farming connotation in German? Something like "flourish" perhaps? We already have the verb poch plant : (KGT 89): "Agriculture (Satlh) is practiced to a certain extent, though it is common to gather uncultivated plants as well. Fruit or vegetables that come from a farm (Du') are called either naH alone or Du' naH (farm fruit or vegetable or produce) ... The verb yob (harvest) is used to refer to gathering up plants or plant parts, whether from a field (yotlh) that has been sown or out in the wild. The verb meaning farm is wIj; that meaning plant (referring to vegetation of any kind) is poch. One may say Sor poch (He/she plants a tree), lav poch (He/she plants a shrub), and even naH poch (He/she plants fruit or vegetables), referring to the ultimate use of the plant as a food source... Now, in light of Okrand's comments, poch seems to refer to the physical act of planting - placing plants or seeds into the ground and covering them with soil - while wIj seems more general (e.g. "I grow wheat and sorghum on my farm"). --Voragh From: Lieven L. Litaer To talk about "growing plants" (i.e. plant them and making them grow), Okrand suggested to use {wIj} "farm". I asked for {chep}, but he said that {chep} does not work with plants.
Am 01.02.2018 um 18:02 schrieb Steven Boozer:
Quick question: Why did you suggest *chep* /prosper, be prosperous/ for growing plants? Does it have a farming connotation in German? Something like “flourish” perhaps?
Yes, absolutely! Even the phrase "live long and prosper" in German uses words related to plants.
We already have the verb *poch* /plant /: [...] Now, in light of Okrand’s comments, *poch* seems to refer to the physical act of planting – placing plants or seeds into the ground and covering them with soil – while *wIj *seems more general (/e.g/. ”I grow wheat and sorghum on my farm”).
Yes, that's what I also think. Planting something does not include that it grows. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
That's what I suspected. In English we call farms prosperous as well as profitable. And a flourishing new business can still be termed "a growing concern" (although it sounds a bit dated to me)! Vielen Dank. --Voragh -----Original Message----- From: Lieven L. Litaer Am 01.02.2018 um 18:02 schrieb Steven Boozer:
Quick question: Why did you suggest *chep* /prosper, be prosperous/ for growing plants? Does it have a farming connotation in German? Something like "flourish" perhaps?
Yes, absolutely! Even the phrase "live long and prosper" in German uses words related to plants.
We already have the verb *poch* /plant /: [...] Now, in light of Okrand's comments, *poch* seems to refer to the physical act of planting - placing plants or seeds into the ground and covering them with soil - while *wIj *seems more general (/e.g/. "I grow wheat and sorghum on my farm").
Yes, that's what I also think. Planting something does not include that it grows. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany"
Seems somehow appropriate as Vulcans are vegetarians! Except for the *V'tosh ka'tur* of course. <g> --Voragh -----Original Message----- From: On Behalf Of Lieven L. Litaer Am 01.02.2018 um 18:02 schrieb Voragh:
Quick question: Why did you suggest *chep* /prosper, be prosperous/ for growing plants? Does it have a farming connotation in German? Something like "flourish" perhaps?
Yes, absolutely! Even the phrase "live long and prosper" in German uses words related to plants.
participants (4)
-
demonchaux.aurelie -
Lieven L. Litaer -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel