At the qepHom 2016, we were happy to learn the word for magic, {'IDnar}. As a coincidence, one of the attendees is a famous professional magician, so the immediate and obvious first question was: What do you call a magician? Few days ago, it was the magician's 40th birthday, and Marc... ehm, sorry, Maltz made this information his birthday present: --- begin quote --- I talked with Maltz about magic a little bit, and here's what he had to say: A true wizard or sorcerer – like in Harry Potter – is a ’IDnar pIn’a’. To conjure or to cast a spell, which is what wizards do, is reS. So a wizard or sorcerer can also be called a reSwI’. A spell, in this sense, is tlheH. One can say either tlheH reS or just reS alone for "he/she casts a spell." Maltz wasn’t sure if there is anything besides tlheH that can be the object of reS, since Maltz isn’t a ’IDnar pIn’a’, but maybe there is. The most common way to refer to a magician, like Kalibo, is mIn yuqwI’ (yuq is “outwit, outsmart”). (A mIn tojwI’ is an “optical illusion.”) Another expression for “magician” is ’IDnar lIlwI’. lIl is a verb meaning something like “simulate, impersonate.” The idea is one of doing something such that the subject of the verb looks or behaves like something (or someone) else or represents something (or someone) else. The word has no connotation of fraud or anything underhanded (in this respect, it’s like ghet). The object is the thing being simulated or the person being impersonated. lIlwI’ (“simulator,” for lack of a better term) is different from lIw (“substitute”) since lIw implies replacement (the notion of “instead of”) while a lIlwI’ doesn’t replace anyone or anything. So “perform magic” (as Kalibo does) is mIn yuq or ’IDnar lIl. (’IDnar pIn’a’ lIl would be “he/she impersonates a wizard [non-fraudulently].” Another word Maltz thought of as we were talking about all of this is yut “distract, create a diversion.” The object of this verb, when there is an object, is the person or group of people (usually) being distracted. [...personal messages removed] Happy Birthday to Kalibo. - Marc PS - My favorite sentence at the moment is “They are (continuously and with some sort of goal in mind) impersonating you (plural).” --- end quote --- -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
He’s really using up those monosyllables now! -- SuStel http://trimboli.name From: Lieven Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 4:16 AM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] magic and magicians At the qepHom 2016, we were happy to learn the word for magic, {'IDnar}. As a coincidence, one of the attendees is a famous professional magician, so the immediate and obvious first question was: What do you call a magician? Few days ago, it was the magician's 40th birthday, and Marc... ehm, sorry, Maltz made this information his birthday present: --- begin quote --- I talked with Maltz about magic a little bit, and here's what he had to say: A true wizard or sorcerer – like in Harry Potter – is a ’IDnar pIn’a’. To conjure or to cast a spell, which is what wizards do, is reS. So a wizard or sorcerer can also be called a reSwI’. A spell, in this sense, is tlheH. One can say either tlheH reS or just reS alone for "he/she casts a spell." Maltz wasn’t sure if there is anything besides tlheH that can be the object of reS, since Maltz isn’t a ’IDnar pIn’a’, but maybe there is. The most common way to refer to a magician, like Kalibo, is mIn yuqwI’ (yuq is “outwit, outsmart”). (A mIn tojwI’ is an “optical illusion.”) Another expression for “magician” is ’IDnar lIlwI’. lIl is a verb meaning something like “simulate, impersonate.” The idea is one of doing something such that the subject of the verb looks or behaves like something (or someone) else or represents something (or someone) else. The word has no connotation of fraud or anything underhanded (in this respect, it’s like ghet). The object is the thing being simulated or the person being impersonated. lIlwI’ (“simulator,” for lack of a better term) is different from lIw (“substitute”) since lIw implies replacement (the notion of “instead of”) while a lIlwI’ doesn’t replace anyone or anything. So “perform magic” (as Kalibo does) is mIn yuq or ’IDnar lIl. (’IDnar pIn’a’ lIl would be “he/she impersonates a wizard [non-fraudulently].” Another word Maltz thought of as we were talking about all of this is yut “distract, create a diversion.” The object of this verb, when there is an object, is the person or group of people (usually) being distracted. [...personal messages removed] Happy Birthday to Kalibo. - Marc PS - My favorite sentence at the moment is “They are (continuously and with some sort of goal in mind) impersonating you (plural).” --- end quote --- -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
There is a magician named Randi. On Fri, 2016-11-25 at 08:14 -0500, sustel@trimboli.name wrote:
He’s really using up those monosyllables now!
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
From: Lieven Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 4:16 AM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] magic and magicians
At the qepHom 2016, we were happy to learn the word for magic, {'IDnar}.
As a coincidence, one of the attendees is a famous professional magician, so the immediate and obvious first question was: What do you call a magician? Few days ago, it was the magician's 40th birthday, and Marc... ehm, sorry, Maltz made this information his birthday present:
--- begin quote --- I talked with Maltz about magic a little bit, and here's what he had to say:
A true wizard or sorcerer – like in Harry Potter – is a ’IDnar pIn’a’.
To conjure or to cast a spell, which is what wizards do, is reS. So a wizard or sorcerer can also be called a reSwI’.
A spell, in this sense, is tlheH. One can say either tlheH reS or just reS alone for "he/she casts a spell." Maltz wasn’t sure if there is anything besides tlheH that can be the object of reS, since Maltz isn’t a ’IDnar pIn’a’, but maybe there is.
The most common way to refer to a magician, like Kalibo, is mIn yuqwI’ (yuq is “outwit, outsmart”).
(A mIn tojwI’ is an “optical illusion.”)
Another expression for “magician” is ’IDnar lIlwI’.
lIl is a verb meaning something like “simulate, impersonate.” The idea is one of doing something such that the subject of the verb looks or behaves like something (or someone) else or represents something (or someone) else. The word has no connotation of fraud or anything underhanded (in this respect, it’s like ghet). The object is the thing being simulated or the person being impersonated. lIlwI’ (“simulator,” for lack of a better term) is different from lIw (“substitute”) since lIw implies replacement (the notion of “instead of”) while a lIlwI’ doesn’t replace anyone or anything.
So “perform magic” (as Kalibo does) is mIn yuq or ’IDnar lIl. (’IDnar pIn’a’ lIl would be “he/she impersonates a wizard [non-fraudulently].”
Another word Maltz thought of as we were talking about all of this is yut “distract, create a diversion.” The object of this verb, when there is an object, is the person or group of people (usually) being distracted.
[...personal messages removed]
Happy Birthday to Kalibo.
- Marc
PS - My favorite sentence at the moment is “They are (continuously and with some sort of goal in mind) impersonating you (plural).” --- end quote ---
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 25.11.2016 um 14:14 schrieb sustel@trimboli.name:
He’s really using up those monosyllables now!
I thought the same thing, but he said there are still many more left. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 10:16:05AM +0100, Lieven wrote:
lIl is a verb meaning something like “simulate, impersonate.” The idea is one of doing something such that the subject of the verb looks or behaves like something (or someone) else or represents something (or someone) else. The word has no connotation of fraud or anything underhanded (in this respect, it’s like ghet). The object is the thing being simulated or the person being impersonated. lIlwI’ (“simulator,” for lack of a better term) is different from lIw (“substitute”) since lIw implies replacement (the notion of “instead of”) while a lIlwI’ doesn’t replace anyone or anything.
Can I infer from this that you would also use {lIl} to refer to dressing as someone or something for e.g. Halloween, i.e. {targh vIlIl} "I'm going as a targ"? Or would you need to say something like {targh jIH 'e' vIghet}? What about an actor in a play? Also, where is the boundary between {lIl} and {Da}? -SapIr
{lIl}, is it now? This just keeps getting more eye-bonking... I suppose it has to be ell eye ell, but still eye-bonking. Looks like the roman numeral three, or the sitelen pona glyph for the toki pona word for "much, many". -QISta' (who still can't pronounce her own name, but at least it's easily legible :-P) On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 9:00 AM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 10:16:05AM +0100, Lieven wrote:
lIl is a verb meaning something like “simulate, impersonate.” The idea is one of doing something such that the subject of the verb looks or behaves like something (or someone) else or represents something (or someone) else. The word has no connotation of fraud or anything underhanded (in this respect, it’s like ghet). The object is the thing being simulated or the person being impersonated. lIlwI’ (“simulator,” for lack of a better term) is different from lIw (“substitute”) since lIw implies replacement (the notion of “instead of”) while a lIlwI’ doesn’t replace anyone or anything.
Can I infer from this that you would also use {lIl} to refer to dressing as someone or something for e.g. Halloween, i.e. {targh vIlIl} "I'm going as a targ"? Or would you need to say something like {targh jIH 'e' vIghet}? What about an actor in a play?
Also, where is the boundary between {lIl} and {Da}?
-SapIr _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Fri, 2016-11-25 at 09:55 -0700, Christa Hansberry wrote:
{lIl}, is it now? This just keeps getting more eye-bonking... I suppose it has to be ell eye ell,
Correct, ell eye ell; CVC (Consonant Vowel Consonant). What we have seen so far, with very few exceptions (suffix -oy), Klingon syllables are CVC or CV. Because of this, there is only one way to read lIlIllI'. - DloraH
-QISta' (who still can't pronounce her own name, but at least it's easily legible :-P)
On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 9:00 AM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 10:16:05AM +0100, Lieven wrote:
lIl is a verb meaning something like “simulate, impersonate.” The idea is one of doing something such that the subject of the verb looks or behaves like something (or someone) else or represents something (or someone) else. The word has no connotation of fraud or anything underhanded (in this respect, it’s like ghet). The object is the thing being simulated or the person being impersonated. lIlwI’ (“simulator,” for lack of a better term) is different from lIw (“substitute”) since lIw implies replacement (the notion of “instead of”) while a lIlwI’ doesn’t replace anyone or anything.
Can I infer from this that you would also use {lIl} to refer to dressing as someone or something for e.g. Halloween, i.e. {targh vIlIl} "I'm going as a targ"? Or would you need to say something like {targh jIH 'e' vIghet}? What about an actor in a play?
Also, where is the boundary between {lIl} and {Da}?
-SapIr _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Can I infer from this that you would also use {lIl} to refer to dressing as someone or something for e.g. Halloween, i.e. {targh vIlIl} "I'm going as a targ"? Or would you need to say something like {targh jIH 'e' vIghet}? What about an actor in a play?
Also, where is the boundary between {lIl} and {Da}?
-SapIr
The way I interpret all this... A comedian will often lIl politicians. Saying that someone is [Da] behaving as a Romulan or Ferengi, would most likely be meant as an insult; not a compliment on their acting skill. Performers on stage ghet. I suppose actors could also lIl if the show was non-fiction, a documentary about someone. - DloraH
Am 25.11.2016 um 17:00 schrieb kechpaja:
Can I infer from this that you would also use {lIl} to refer to dressing as someone or something for e.g. Halloween, i.e. {targh vIlIl} "I'm going as a targ"? Or would you need to say something like {targh jIH 'e' vIghet}? What about an actor in a play?
Also, where is the boundary between {lIl} and {Da}?
Ther's the canon example {nepwI' DaDa} (or so) "you are behaving like a liar" - that is close to an insult, as it actually says "you are lying!" The verb Da does not include intendedly faking a person {tlhIngan DaDa} = Maybe you haven't noticed yet, but today you are behaving like a klingon. When {lIl}ing, one is pretending or imitating a liar. I think you could also use that for children who play mom and dad; The verb {ghet} - I think - is really only used for stage actors, or at leastpeople who really "play" a role stying "in character". Actually, ghet is closer to lIl than Da is. The interesting idea is that lIl can not only be used with people. I'm still thinking about which device or thing can imitate a different thing. Maybe props at a movie set? I understand {pu'HIch lIlwI'} as a phaser prop. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On 11/27/2016 7:52 AM, Lieven wrote:
Ther's the canon example {nepwI' DaDa} (or so) "you are behaving like a liar"
The canon example is *nepwI' Daba'*/He's obviously lying (he obviously behaves as a liar)./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 27.11.2016 um 13:54 schrieb SuStel:
The canon example is *nepwI' Daba'*/He's obviously lying (he obviously behaves as a liar)./
qatlho', jupwI'. This example perfectly shows that {Da} does not mean any pretending like ghet or lIl does: he IS obviously lying, he is not just pretending that he is lying. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 4:16 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
PS - My favorite sentence at the moment is “They are (continuously and with some sort of goal in mind) impersonating you (plural).” --- end quote ---
lIlIllI' is definitely an argument for not using sans serif fonts for writing Klingon. I think this might be the first time Marc has acknowledged the -lI' suffix since it was described in TKD.
You’re right that Okrand rarely uses {-lI’}. But post-TKD he has used it only a couple of times in the paq’batlh: yatlh luqara' puqloD wa'DIch qenglI' Lukara, pregnant [lit. "carrying"] of their first-born son (PB) Daq HopHa’Daq qa’chaj nejlI’ qotar Qempa’QeH je Not far away, Kotar and his Qempa'keh, are in search for their souls. (PB) … and once in Sonnet 116: ghobe'! qarbejbogh DoDvam qontaH 'u' jevqu'taHvIS muD ral, bejlI' parmaq. Qombe'! nISbe' jevwI', 'ej not ruS baq. Oh, no! It is an ever-fixed mark. That looks on tempests and is never shaken. --Voragh On Behalf Of nIqolay Q Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 10:49 AM On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 4:16 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote: PS - My favorite sentence at the moment is “They are (continuously and with some sort of goal in mind) impersonating you (plural).” --- end quote --- llIlIllI' is definitely an argument for not using sans serif fonts for writing Klingon. I think this might be the first time Marc has acknowledged the -lI' suffix since it was described in TKD.
participants (8)
-
Christa Hansberry -
DloraH -
kechpaja -
Lieven -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
sustel＠trimboli.name