Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Klingon Word of the Day: romuluSngan
I wanted to ask something about that word, so this KWOTD is very opportune :-) Some days ago I discussed the phrase: *romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*. Shouldn't it have been *romuluS Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*? I've also found another canon example: *loSmaH romuluSngan SuvwI'pu' HoHta' qeng*, translated: *Kang killed 40 Romulan warriors*. Is there something I'm missing? Thank you!
It’s common to arbitrarily pick the name of a place or of the inhabitants in a Noun-Noun construction. Consider that {tlhIngan Hol} could just as easily have been called {Qo’noS Hol}. It’s not right or wrong to use one or the other. One of them simply stuck and became the common term. The Noun-Noun simply implies an association, like, but not limited to, possession. The device might be associated with the planet Romulus, or to its inhabitants. It was developed on the planet by its inhabitants. Both are associated with the device.
On Nov 9, 2021, at 8:04 AM, luis.chaparro@web.de wrote:
I wanted to ask something about that word, so this KWOTD is very opportune :-)
Some days ago I discussed the phrase: *romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*. Shouldn't it have been *romuluS Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*? I've also found another canon example: *loSmaH romuluSngan SuvwI'pu' HoHta' qeng*, translated: *Kang killed 40 Romulan warriors*. Is there something I'm missing? Thank you! _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
------------------------------Original Message------------------------------ From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of luis.chaparro@web.de I wanted to ask something about that word, so this KWOTD is very opportune :-) Some days ago I discussed the phrase: *romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*. Shouldn't it have been *romuluS Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*? I've also found another canon example: *loSmaH romuluSngan SuvwI'pu' HoHta' qeng*, translated: *Kang killed 40 Romulan warriors*. Is there something I'm missing? ------------------------------Original Message------------------------------ The basic idea is that {romuluSngan} refers to people and things related to them while {romuluS} refers to things characteristic of the planet, like {romuluS muD} the Romulan atmosphere, {romuluS Hovtay'} the Romulan star system, etc. So a {romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'} was invented and/or originally used by or against Romulans (people) and the {loSmaH romuluSngan SuvwI'pu'} Kang killed were Romulan people too. Since I didn't do it yesterday, here are the examples of each I know of FYI: romuluSngan Romulan [person] (n) (KGT 141): A name for the inhabitant of a planet (and, therefore, the name of a race of beings) is formed by adding {ngan} (inhabitant) to the planet name (excluding the number, if any): {lIghonngan} (Ligonian), {tera'ngan} (Earther, Terran), {romuluSngan} (Romulan). pImlaw' romuluSngan be' porgh I've heard Romulan women are different. (ST5 notes) DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu' Romulan women belong on their backs! (ST5 notes) ... tlhIngan'e', tera'ngan'e', romuluSngan'e' [... a Klingon, a Terran, a Romulan] (ST5; off-camera voice on subspace radio) wa' tera'ngan je wa' romuluSngan A Terran and a Romulan [sic]. ST5 romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI' Romulan hunter-killer probe (long form) KCD natlh romuluSnganpu' Romulans are objectionable. (slang) KGT romuluSnganpu' Dujmey DIQaw'pu'; pe'vIl DIbI'chu'pu' We destroyed the Romulans' ships all at once. KGT matlhHa'; romuluSngan rur disloyal as a Romulan. (common simile) KGT tlhInganpu' romuluSnganpu' ghap either Klingons or Romulans KGT tlhInganpu' ghap romuluSnganpu' either Klingons or Romulans (youthful error) KGT ngoQvam luchavmeH ghawran maghpu' be'nI'pu'. woQ luSuqmeH jIjpu' chaH romuluSngan'e' je. To this end, the sisters have acted against Gowron, going as far as to work with Romulan factions in order to gain power. S26 chaq tampu'. chaq romuluSnganpu'vaD pIvghor cham lunobpu' tlhInganpu' possibly in exchange for Warp Drive technology. ["Possibly they exchanged it. Possibly the Klingons gave warp drive technology to the Romulans"] S33 DaHjaj romuluSngan vIHoHpu' Today I killed a Romulan. (msn.onstage.startrek.expert.Okrand 6/29/1997) loSmaH romulusngan SuvwI'pu' HoHta' qeng. Kang killed 40 Romulan warriors. (IMO, HQ 8.3) romuluS Romulus [planet] (GN) (KGT 141-42): On other occasions, a name is a Klingon version of the name used not by the natives of a planet but by another alien culture. Thus, {romuluS} (Romulus) is based on the Federation name of the planet; the actual Romulan name is something quite distinct. [...] No one ever says {romuluSya'} … romuluS yo' wIjeyta' We've defeated the Romulan fleet. KGT romuluS Ha'DIbaH Romulan dog! (epithet) KGT muyIv romuluS Ha'DIbaH The Romulan dog irks me. KGT boq lucherDI' tlhIngan wo' romuluS Hov wo' je So'wI' cham Suqpu' tlhIngan wo'. Cloaking technology was gained through an alliance with the Romulan Star Empire... S33 Qo'noS romuluS je boSuqlaH. vabDot tera' Qejbogh DIvI' ram boSuqlaH. Kronos, Romulus and even the puny Federation's precious Earth, are all up for grabs. MKE Dujon romuluS Duj Captured by Romulan ship. MKE romuluS HIq Romulan ale (n) (KGT 94): Thus, the word {HIq} is translated in various ways in names of different drinks, particularly, though not exclusively, those of non-Klingon origin: {romuluS HIq} (Romulan ale), {'Iw HIq} (blood wine), {Sorya' HIq} (Saurian brandy). Worf suffered from a hangover the day after Ryker and Troi's engagement party: WORF: Ugh… Romulan ale should be illegal! RYKER: It is. [ST:Nemesis] tera'nganvaD romuluS HIq jabQo' They won't serve Romulan ale to Terrans. CK romuluS HIq vItlhutlh I will drink Romulan ale. PK I've wondered for years why it's called {romuluS HIq} and not *{romuluSngan HIq}. After all, Romulans make and drink it. (I doubt it's found naturally on the planet!) Perhaps it's so famous that it actually is associated with the entire planet, like {Sorya' HIq} (Saurian brandy), or authentic ale only comes from Romulus and not from (alien) manufacturers outside the Romulan Empire. Whatever the reason, it's one of those "just because" things in the language you have to learn. TREK TRIVIA: “Romulans – they’re so predictably treacherous.” (Weyoun, DS9 “Image in the Sand”) -- Voragh, Ca'Non Master of the Klingons Please contribute relevant vocabulary or notes from the last year or two. I’ve fallen woefully behind in updating my files.
Thank you, charghwI' and Voragh for your replies! I think it was the *romuluS HIq* and how the name of languages are formed in Klingon that made me think origin is expressed in noun-noun constructions with the name of the planet/country/region, and not with the name of the inhabitans. Voragh:
The basic idea is that {romuluSngan} refers to people and things related to them while {romuluS} refers to things characteristic of the planet, like {romuluS muD} the Romulan atmosphere, {romuluS Hovtay'} the Romulan star system, etc. So a {romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'} was invented and/or originally used by or against Romulans (people) and the {loSmaH romuluSngan SuvwI'pu'} Kang killed were Romulan people too.
Sorry if I ask again: I understand what you mean with *romuluS muD* and *romuluS Hovtay'* as *things characteristic of the planet*, even *romuluS Ha'DIbaH*, but then we have these examples: Voragh:
romuluS yo' wIjeyta' We've defeated the Romulan fleet. KGT
boq lucherDI' tlhIngan wo' romuluS Hov wo' je So'wI' cham Suqpu' tlhIngan wo'. Cloaking technology was gained through an alliance with the Romulan Star Empire... S33 Federation's precious Earth, are all up for grabs. MKE
Dujon romuluS Duj Captured by Romulan ship. MKE
Especially the last one makes no much sense to me if compared to *romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*. A *Duj* or a *nejwI'* are both things invented/used by the (Romulan) people and not directly things charasteristic of their planet (?). charghwI':
It’s common to arbitrarily pick the name of a place or of the inhabitants in a Noun-Noun construction
Maybe it's just as charghwI' says something which is chosen arbitrarily? Thank you for your patience!
According to KCD the {romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'} or "Romulan hunter-killer probe" has a short form: {HoHwI'} -- i.e. a "killer". It's likely that {romuluS Duj} and {romuluS yo'} are short for the longer and more cumbersome {romuluS Hov wo' Duj} "ship of the Romulan Star Empire" and {romuluS Hov wo' yo'} "fleet of the Romulan Star Empire". I'm guessing that when Klingons use {romuluS} in this way they're referring to official things of the Romulan Empire -- i.e. the empire of (the planet) Romulus -- not the empire of the Romulan people or {romuluSnganpu' wo'}, a subtle but significant difference. Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of luis.chaparro@web.de Voragh:
The basic idea is that {romuluSngan} refers to people and things related to them while {romuluS} refers to things characteristic of the planet, like {romuluS muD} the Romulan atmosphere, {romuluS Hovtay'} the Romulan star system, etc. So a {romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'} was invented and/or originally used by or against Romulans (people) and the {loSmaH romuluSngan SuvwI'pu'} Kang killed were Romulan people too.
Sorry if I ask again: I understand what you mean with *romuluS muD* and *romuluS Hovtay'* as *things characteristic of the planet*, even *romuluS Ha'DIbaH*, but then we have these examples: Voragh:
romuluS yo' wIjeyta' We've defeated the Romulan fleet. KGT [....] boq lucherDI' tlhIngan wo' romuluS Hov wo' je So'wI' cham Suqpu' tlhIngan wo'. Cloaking technology was gained through an alliance with the Romulan Star Empire... S33 [....] Dujon romuluS Duj Captured by Romulan ship. MKE
Especially the last one makes no much sense to me if compared to *romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*. A *Duj* or a *nejwI'* are both things invented/used by the (Romulan) people and not directly things charasteristic of their planet (?).
The thing is, we’re presumptive when we try to figure out what an abbreviation is short for. It could just as easily be an abbreviation of {romuluSngan Duj} and {romulusngan yo’}.
On Nov 10, 2021, at 3:08 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
According to KCD the {romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'} or "Romulan hunter-killer probe" has a short form: {HoHwI'} -- i.e. a "killer". It's likely that {romuluS Duj} and {romuluS yo'} are short for the longer and more cumbersome {romuluS Hov wo' Duj} "ship of the Romulan Star Empire" and {romuluS Hov wo' yo'} "fleet of the Romulan Star Empire".
I'm guessing that when Klingons use {romuluS} in this way they're referring to official things of the Romulan Empire -- i.e. the empire of (the planet) Romulus -- not the empire of the Romulan people or {romuluSnganpu' wo'}, a subtle but significant difference.
Voragh
-----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of luis.chaparro@web.de
Voragh:
The basic idea is that {romuluSngan} refers to people and things related to them while {romuluS} refers to things characteristic of the planet, like {romuluS muD} the Romulan atmosphere, {romuluS Hovtay'} the Romulan star system, etc. So a {romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'} was invented and/or originally used by or against Romulans (people) and the {loSmaH romuluSngan SuvwI'pu'} Kang killed were Romulan people too.
Sorry if I ask again: I understand what you mean with *romuluS muD* and *romuluS Hovtay'* as *things characteristic of the planet*, even *romuluS Ha'DIbaH*, but then we have these examples:
Voragh:
romuluS yo' wIjeyta' We've defeated the Romulan fleet. KGT [....] boq lucherDI' tlhIngan wo' romuluS Hov wo' je So'wI' cham Suqpu' tlhIngan wo'. Cloaking technology was gained through an alliance with the Romulan Star Empire... S33 [....] Dujon romuluS Duj Captured by Romulan ship. MKE
Especially the last one makes no much sense to me if compared to *romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*. A *Duj* or a *nejwI'* are both things invented/used by the (Romulan) people and not directly things charasteristic of their planet (?).
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participants (3)
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luis.chaparro＠web.de -
Steven Boozer -
Will Martin