Assume, there is an accident having taken place in a city. The accident has been described, the people involved have been described, the city too, and then I want to say "far from them (from the accident and the people involved), there is a location". Because, I *need* to continue the story by saying "at *that* location something else happened". In this context, would the {chaHDaq Hopbogh Daq tu'lu'} be adequate for "far from them (the people involved), there was a location" , so then I will say {DaqvamDaq qaS ..} ? Perhaps, I can just say {Daq HopDaq qaS...}. But suppose that in the story, there is someone else involved too, who may not be near enough to the accident, so I *need* to specify near to *who* the location to be described next, actually is. ~ m. qunen'oS

On 6/15/2019 2:14 PM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:

Being on the subject, is there any difference between {chaHDaq Hopbogh Daq tu'lu'} and {chaHDaq Daq Hop tu'lu'} ?

No. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

SuStel:

It would be a lot easier if you would just give > us what you're working on, with the surrounding text for context.

I'd love to do that, but unfortunately it's in greek.. It's from matthew chapter 8, line 30, the incident where jesus talks to two possessed people. The english translation of the greek orthodox goes "now, there was a herd of many pigs feeding at some distance from them". But it doesn't specify if the "them" includes jesus too. Logically, since the possessed talk to jesus, the "them" should refer to both jesus and the possessed. But this is not certain. What *is* certain though, is that the location of the herd is meant in reference at least to the possessed. So, I wanted to specify, that the "at some distance" is at least in reference to the possessed. On the other hand, the original greek, as well as the canon modern greek orthodox translation, doesn't say "some distance", but "far from them", so go figure. Anyways, I'll translate it as the original greek, leaving it ambiguous as the original text. After all, qeylIS knows, new testament wasn't written in greek, but in klingon. It's just that the original klingon was lost through the centuries. But luckily, now it's slowly being recovered.. 'ej DaH jIQong.. ~ m. qunen'oS you haven't experienced new testament unless you read it in the original klingon

I, for one, strongly prefer SuStel’s first suggestion, or {SoptaH Hopbogh *pig* ghom tIn} or the like. The point is, you want to use deixis as an element of the grammar of the sentence. You don’t want to wave flags and shoot flares and play rock and roll at space launch volume levels, screaming, “DEIXIS, DEIXIS, HERE IT IS!” mayqel’s original idea simply turns the deixis into an abstract and dances around it so much that it becomes too easy to see it as a separate concept and forget what it is supposed to be describing. It’s like, “Stuff happened at this one place, and there’s another place that is placed far, far away from this other place, so this second place is the place where this other thing took place.” Yes, I’m exaggerating, but I’m doing so to show what it feels like trying to read mayqel’s Klingon example. SuStel fixes it nicely, and as he suggests, other approaches would also work. The better technique is to use more than one sentence, construct context in one sentence for those that follow it, and use deixis to link the two location contexts by the concept of distance, without so much reliance on repetition of {-Daq} or {Daq}. You don’t have to say, “At the place X happened, there’s another place that is distant. Y happened at the second place.” You can just say, “X happened. At a place that is distant, Y happened.” Simple is better. Sometimes attempts to spell out every element of meaning instead distracts from meaning. (...as I’ve probably done in this post.) [sigh] Sent from my iPad

On Jun 15, 2019, at 3:57 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

...

On 6/15/2019 3:17 PM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote: The english translation of the greek orthodox goes "now, there was a herd of many pigs feeding at some distance from them". SoptaH pig ghom tIn. Hop.

or

Daq HopDaq SoptaH pig ghom tIn.

The from them comes from the fact that you were just talking about them, so anything that is far is far from them.

-- SuStel http://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

There are degrees of being “wrong”. {chaHDaq Hopbogh Daq tu’lu’} doesn’t technically break any grammar rules. It’s just making an entire separate sentence out of a location reference. Ironically, it requires context to make any sense. I mean, listen to yourself. “One finds a place distant from their location.” That doesn’t really tell us much, and you spent time and words failing to tell us anything that isn’t obvious. OF COURSE THERE IS A PLACE DISTANT FROM THEM. There is ****ALWAYS*** a place distant from them. EVERY place has another place distant from it. So? Check out these two expressions in English: 1. I drank lemonade. There exists a place far away from that place. My cousin drank tea at that place. 2. I drank lemonade. Far away, my cousin drank tea. Not only is the second expression more concise. It is less confusing. Maybe my cousin and I drank our fluids in the same place and then there’s some other place that exists and we know nothing of what happens there, beyond its distant existence. So, Jesus and some ghosts chatted. A large group of distant pigs gathered. It’s pretty obvious that the Jesus didn’t chat near the pigs. They are distant pigs. If they were near Jesus, they wouldn’t be distant pigs. They’d just be pigs. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Jun 16, 2019, at 8:59 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

I too prefer using just {Hop}, as SuStel suggested, but I still don't understand.

Is the {chaHDaq Hopbogh Daq tu'lu'} wrong ? Or is it just "too much"/"more than necessary" ?

~ m. qunen'oS _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org