With "joq" - how do we choose the right verb prefix ?
Hello all, While discussing on the "Learn Klingon" group on Facebook, we wondered how to choose the correct verb prefix when "joq" (and / or) is used in the object and / or subject of the sentence. If we have the structure: noun1 noun2 joq + verb Do we consider that the object of the verb is singular or plural ? Using an example sentence: We need to learn French and / or Klingon. 1/ vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq *wI*ghojnIS. 2/ vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq *DI*ghojnIS if it were just a "je" we'd use "DI-" without hesitating, or if it were a "ghap" we'd use "wI-", but with joq... ? Has it already been discussed at some point what to do when you can't determine whether a verb's object / subject is singular or plural ? Thanks in advance :) Aurélie
I don't think the plurality of phrases with {joq} or {ghap} has ever been discussed. I don't know if there's any examples. My guess is that since {joq} also includes the idea of "and", it should be considered plural. But that's just a guess, and I have no idea what to do with {ghap}, or what to do with the broader question of unknown plurality. We may have to kick this one over to Maltz. On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Aurélie Demonchaux < demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello all,
While discussing on the "Learn Klingon" group on Facebook, we wondered how to choose the correct verb prefix when "joq" (and / or) is used in the object and / or subject of the sentence.
If we have the structure:
noun1 noun2 joq + verb
Do we consider that the object of the verb is singular or plural ?
Using an example sentence: We need to learn French and / or Klingon.
1/ vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq *wI*ghojnIS. 2/ vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq *DI*ghojnIS
if it were just a "je" we'd use "DI-" without hesitating, or if it were a "ghap" we'd use "wI-", but with joq... ?
Has it already been discussed at some point what to do when you can't determine whether a verb's object / subject is singular or plural ?
Thanks in advance :) Aurélie
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I searched my notes for examples of the conjunctions {joq} and {ghap} in a complete sentences… joq or, and/or (noun conj): ta'meyDaj boqawDI' SuHemjaj mu'meyDaj bojatlhDI' Suvaljaj not ta'meyDaj mu'meyDaj joq bolIjjaj May you remember his deeds with pride, May you recite his words with wisdom, May they forever be unforgettable. (PB) Unfortunately the prefix {bo-} means “you (pl.) [do something to] him/her/it/them” so this is inconclusive. {joq} was once apparently omitted/implied in SkyBox S21: qagh, ro'qegh'Iwchab, targh tIq Sop 'e' lungIl Humanpu' puS Few humans dare to eat gagh, rokeg blood pie, or heart of targ. (S21) ghap or, either/or (noun conj): HIq qIj reghuluS 'Iw HIq ghap jab They serve Black Ale or Regulan bloodwine. (CK) {A B ghap jab} “they serve them” not {lujab} “they serve it” -- Voragh From: nIqolay Q Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:54 PM I don't think the plurality of phrases with {joq} or {ghap} has ever been discussed. I don't know if there's any examples. My guess is that since {joq} also includes the idea of "and", it should be considered plural. But that's just a guess, and I have no idea what to do with {ghap}, or what to do with the broader question of unknown plurality. We may have to kick this one over to Maltz. On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Aurélie Demonchaux <demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com<mailto:demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com>> wrote: While discussing on the "Learn Klingon" group on Facebook, we wondered how to choose the correct verb prefix when "joq" (and / or) is used in the object and / or subject of the sentence. If we have the structure: noun1 noun2 joq + verb Do we consider that the object of the verb is singular or plural ? Using an example sentence: We need to learn French and / or Klingon. 1/ vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq wIghojnIS. 2/ vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq DIghojnIS if it were just a "je" we'd use "DI-" without hesitating, or if it were a "ghap" we'd use "wI-", but with joq... ? Has it already been discussed at some point what to do when you can't determine whether a verb's object / subject is singular or plural ?
On 8/31/2017 2:08 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
not ta'meyDaj mu'meyDaj joq bolIjjaj
Unfortunately the prefix {bo-} means “you (pl.) [do something to] him/her/it/them” so this is inconclusive.
Even if the prefix indicated a plural object, this wouldn't tell us anything, because both options are themselves plural anyway. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Good point. I was so fixated on finding examples with verbs that I completely missed the plural suffixes. --Voragh From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of SuStel On 8/31/2017 2:08 PM, Steven Boozer wrote: not ta'meyDaj mu'meyDaj joq bolIjjaj Unfortunately the prefix {bo-} means “you (pl.) [do something to] him/her/it/them” so this is inconclusive. Even if the prefix indicated a plural object, this wouldn't tell us anything, because both options are themselves plural anyway. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Aurélie Demonchaux < demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com> wrote:
While discussing on the "Learn Klingon" group on Facebook, we wondered how to choose the correct verb prefix when "joq" (and / or) is used in the object and / or subject of the sentence. [...] if it were just a "je" we'd use "DI-" without hesitating, or if it were a "ghap" we'd use "wI-", but with joq... ? Has it already been discussed at some point what to do when you can't determine whether a verb's object / subject is singular or plural ?
I don't think there is a prescriptive answer to this question. My instinct is to avoid the situation, the way I often do with English sentences that call for an assumption of gender when it's not important to the idea. (I dislike the "singular they", but I don't have a problem making entire sentences plural in order to use "they" and "them" instead of "he or she" and "him or her".) Failing that, I usually go with whatever is more likely to be the case. In the {vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq} example, I would arbitrarily call it plural, mostly because I think most people who would reject learning French would not be part of the audience. -- ghunchu'wI'
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 01:55:02PM -0400, Alan Anderson wrote:
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Aurélie Demonchaux < demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com> wrote:
While discussing on the "Learn Klingon" group on Facebook, we wondered how to choose the correct verb prefix when "joq" (and / or) is used in the object and / or subject of the sentence. [...] if it were just a "je" we'd use "DI-" without hesitating, or if it were a "ghap" we'd use "wI-", but with joq... ? Has it already been discussed at some point what to do when you can't determine whether a verb's object / subject is singular or plural ?
I don't think there is a prescriptive answer to this question. My instinct is to avoid the situation, the way I often do with English sentences that call for an assumption of gender when it's not important to the idea. (I dislike the "singular they", but I don't have a problem making entire sentences plural in order to use "they" and "them" instead of "he or she" and "him or her".)
Failing that, I usually go with whatever is more likely to be the case. In the {vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq} example, I would arbitrarily call it plural, mostly because I think most people who would reject learning French would not be part of the audience.
This is an interesting question. I would probably have defaulted to the singular, since that's what I would do in English: A cat or (maybe) a dog is chasing me. But it had never occurred to me to even ask this question, so it's good that it got brought up. There's no reason it should have to go either way (you can think of reasons for both options), so this would end up being a question of what feels most correct to Klingons (and, for more formal language, a question of what prescriptivist Klingon grammarians think is the right answer). -SapIr
I don't know what the "proper" way to do it is, but I think it's safe to say that no (or at least almost no) Klingonists will fault you or correct you for either choice. So say whichever feels better at the moment and don't let it worry you too much. Jeremy ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Aurélie Demonchaux <demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 11:56 AM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] With "joq" - how do we choose the right verb prefix ? Hello all, While discussing on the "Learn Klingon" group on Facebook, we wondered how to choose the correct verb prefix when "joq" (and / or) is used in the object and / or subject of the sentence. If we have the structure: noun1 noun2 joq + verb Do we consider that the object of the verb is singular or plural ? Using an example sentence: We need to learn French and / or Klingon. 1/ vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq wIghojnIS. 2/ vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq DIghojnIS if it were just a "je" we'd use "DI-" without hesitating, or if it were a "ghap" we'd use "wI-", but with joq... ? Has it already been discussed at some point what to do when you can't determine whether a verb's object / subject is singular or plural ? Thanks in advance :) Aurélie
participants (7)
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Alan Anderson -
Aurélie Demonchaux -
David Holt -
kechpaja -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel