Re: [tlhIngan Hol] With "joq" - how do we choose the right verb prefix ?
Thank you all for your replies and thoughts on this ! HIq qIj reghuluS 'Iw HIq ghap jab They serve Black Ale or Regulan bloodwine. (CK) {A B ghap jab} “they serve them” not {lujab} “they serve it” This is a great example, and I think this gives us the solution, thank you for digging it up! I was convinced that if A and B were both singular, "A B ghap" would be considered singular when choosing the verb prefix, and that's why I thought joq might be singular in those cases, and I couldnt choose between singular or plural. But this proves the contrary ! So, to sum up, whether A and B are singular or plural, and whether we use je or ghap, A + B + je / ghap is always plural. Logically, A + B + joq is thus also always plural ! So the correct sentence in my example is: vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq DIghojnIS tuQaHmo' Satlho' :) Aurélie Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy. -------- Message d'origine --------De : Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> Date : 31/08/2017 20:08 (GMT+01:00) À : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Objet : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] With "joq" - how do we choose the right verb prefix ? I searched my notes for examples of the conjunctions {joq} and {ghap} in a complete sentences… joq or, and/or (noun conj): ta'meyDaj boqawDI' SuHemjaj mu'meyDaj bojatlhDI' Suvaljaj not ta'meyDaj mu'meyDaj joq bolIjjaj May you remember his deeds with pride, May you recite his words with wisdom, May they forever be unforgettable. (PB) Unfortunately the prefix {bo-} means “you (pl.) [do something to] him/her/it/them” so this is inconclusive. {joq} was once apparently omitted/implied in SkyBox S21: qagh, ro'qegh'Iwchab, targh tIq Sop 'e' lungIl Humanpu' puS Few humans dare to eat gagh, rokeg blood pie, or heart of targ. (S21) ghap or, either/or (noun conj): HIq qIj reghuluS 'Iw HIq ghap jab They serve Black Ale or Regulan bloodwine. (CK) {A B ghap jab} “they serve them” not {lujab} “they serve it” -- Voragh From: nIqolay Q Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:54 PM I don't think the plurality of phrases with {joq} or {ghap} has ever been discussed. I don't know if there's any examples. My guess is that since {joq} also includes the idea of "and", it should be considered plural. But that's just a guess, and I have no idea what to do with {ghap}, or what to do with the broader question of unknown plurality. We may have to kick this one over to Maltz. On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 12:56 PM, Aurélie Demonchaux <demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com> wrote: While discussing on the "Learn Klingon" group on Facebook, we wondered how to choose the correct verb prefix when "joq" (and / or) is used in the object and / or subject of the sentence. If we have the structure: noun1 noun2 joq + verb Do we consider that the object of the verb is singular or plural ? Using an example sentence: We need to learn French and / or Klingon. 1/ vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq wIghojnIS. 2/ vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq DIghojnIS if it were just a "je" we'd use "DI-" without hesitating, or if it were a "ghap" we'd use "wI-", but with joq... ? Has it already been discussed at some point what to do when you can't determine whether a verb's object / subject is singular or plural ?
On 9/1/2017 11:32 AM, demonchaux.aurelie wrote:
Thank you all for your replies and thoughts on this !
/HIq qIj reghuluS 'Iw HIq ghap jab
They serve Black Ale or Regulan bloodwine. (CK)
{A B ghap jab} “they serve them” not {lujab} “they serve it”/
This is a great example, and I think this gives us the solution, thank you for digging it up!
I was convinced that if A and B were both singular, "A B ghap" would be considered singular when choosing the verb prefix, and that's why I thought joq might be singular in those cases, and I couldnt choose between singular or plural. But this proves the contrary !
So, to sum up, whether A and B are singular or plural, and whether we use je or ghap, A + B + je / ghap is always plural.
Logically, A + B + joq is thus also always plural !
So the correct sentence in my example is: vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq DIghojnIS
tuQaHmo' Satlho' :)
It's an interesting data point, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Okrand forgets the prefix *lu-* often enough that he even points out that Klingons forget *lu-* more than any other prefix. Then there's this example from /HolQeD/ 12:2/,/ which seems to contradict your analysis: *naQ megh'an 'er'In ghap yI'uch */grasp either end of the stick/ The words *'er'In* and *megh'an* are /definitely/ intended to be singular here. If a *ghap* construction always got interpreted as plural, the verb should have been *tI'uch,* but it wasn't. And yes, sometimes Okrand forgets to use *tI-* and uses *yI-* instead. So we have two contradictory conclusions, each of which is based on examples with grammatical rules that Okrand commonly gets wrong. Finally, even in English we don't use one consistent rule. /Either Bob or Linda are coming over./ A finicky grammarian would complain that the verb should have been /is;/ nobody else would even have noticed. I could easily see a native English speaker, constructing a Klingon sentence, following the same fuzzy rules. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
even in English we don't use one consistent rule.
The same happens in Greek too. Why doesn't someone who knows 'oqranD personally, send him a mail in order to clarify the matter ? qunnoq On Sep 1, 2017 19:08, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/1/2017 11:32 AM, demonchaux.aurelie wrote:
Thank you all for your replies and thoughts on this !
* HIq qIj reghuluS 'Iw HIq ghap jab They serve Black Ale or Regulan bloodwine. (CK) {A B ghap jab} “they serve them” not {lujab} “they serve it”*
This is a great example, and I think this gives us the solution, thank you for digging it up!
I was convinced that if A and B were both singular, "A B ghap" would be considered singular when choosing the verb prefix, and that's why I thought joq might be singular in those cases, and I couldnt choose between singular or plural. But this proves the contrary !
So, to sum up, whether A and B are singular or plural, and whether we use je or ghap, A + B + je / ghap is always plural.
Logically, A + B + joq is thus also always plural !
So the correct sentence in my example is: vIraS Hol tlhIngan Hol joq DIghojnIS
tuQaHmo' Satlho' :)
It's an interesting data point, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Okrand forgets the prefix *lu-* often enough that he even points out that Klingons forget *lu-* more than any other prefix.
Then there's this example from *HolQeD* 12:2*,* which seems to contradict your analysis:
*naQ megh'an 'er'In ghap yI'uch **grasp either end of the stick*
The words *'er'In* and *megh'an* are *definitely* intended to be singular here. If a *ghap* construction always got interpreted as plural, the verb should have been *tI'uch,* but it wasn't. And yes, sometimes Okrand forgets to use *tI-* and uses *yI-* instead. So we have two contradictory conclusions, each of which is based on examples with grammatical rules that Okrand commonly gets wrong.
Finally, even in English we don't use one consistent rule. *Either Bob or Linda are coming over.* A finicky grammarian would complain that the verb should have been *is;* nobody else would even have noticed. I could easily see a native English speaker, constructing a Klingon sentence, following the same fuzzy rules.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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On 9/1/2017 12:13 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
Why doesn't someone who knows 'oqranD personally, send him a mail in order to clarify the matter ?
And not only the general case of *joq,* but also the case of *ghap* where one noun is singular and the other is plural. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
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SuStel