{SorHa'} ? Of course.. But with jay' what ?
So, we have the word {SorHa'}, meaning "to speak metaphorically". On the other hand, we can't use klingon words metaphorically, because we always need to take them on their most myopic, strict, and narrow-minded meaning. But then, how is someone supposed to speak metaphorically ? With what jay' words ? Unless he says in advance {DaH jISorHa'}, and then continues to stretch the meaning of any klingon words he likes. But is that the case indeed ? qunnoq
Am 19.08.2016 um 11:15 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
So, we have the word {SorHa'}, meaning "to speak metaphorically".
Maybe this refers to all those idiomatic expressions we've learned from KGT: reH bo'Dagh'a' lo' vutwI'. 'ach jISorHa', net Sov ;-) "The cook always uses a big scoop, but only metaphorically." -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On 8/19/2016 5:15 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
So, we have the word {SorHa'}, meaning "to speak metaphorically".
On the other hand, we can't use klingon words metaphorically, because we always need to take them on their most myopic, strict, and narrow-minded meaning.
You are mistaken. Feel free to speak metaphorically. What we can't do is assume that an /idiom/ from another language will work in Klingon. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
ok, I'll play along.. So, if I say : {toQDuj QuQ ruptaH pIvlob chorgh} you will accept it ? qunnoq ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngeHta' On 19 Aug 2016 3:02 p.m., "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/19/2016 5:15 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
So, we have the word {SorHa'}, meaning "to speak metaphorically".
On the other hand, we can't use klingon words metaphorically, because we always need to take them on their most myopic, strict, and narrow-minded meaning.
You are mistaken. Feel free to speak metaphorically. What we can't do is assume that an *idiom* from another language will work in Klingon.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
or if I say: {Huch Danojta'bogh vIpe'ta'} you will accept it as well ? qunnoq ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngeHta' On 19 Aug 2016 3:08 p.m., "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
ok, I'll play along..
So, if I say : {toQDuj QuQ ruptaH pIvlob chorgh}
you will accept it ?
qunnoq ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngeHta'
On 19 Aug 2016 3:02 p.m., "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/19/2016 5:15 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
So, we have the word {SorHa'}, meaning "to speak metaphorically".
On the other hand, we can't use klingon words metaphorically, because we always need to take them on their most myopic, strict, and narrow-minded meaning.
You are mistaken. Feel free to speak metaphorically. What we can't do is assume that an *idiom* from another language will work in Klingon.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 8/19/2016 8:12 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
or if I say:
{Huch Danojta'bogh vIpe'ta'}
you will accept it as well ?
No. I don't even understand what it's supposed to mean. /metaphor:/ a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance /idiom: /an expression whose meaning is not predictable from the usual meanings of its constituent elements, as /kick////the////bucket/ or /hang////one's////head,/ or from the general grammatical rules of a language, as /the////table////round/ for /the////round////table,/ and that is not a constituent of a larger expression of like characteristics -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 8/19/2016 8:08 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
ok, I'll play along..
So, if I say : {toQDuj QuQ ruptaH pIvlob chorgh}
you will accept it ?
No. I can work out that "taxing warp factor 8" must mean "going at warp 8," but that's not a metaphor; it's an idiom I don't recognize. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 8:08 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
ok, I'll play along.. So, if I say : {toQDuj QuQ ruptaH pIvlob chorgh} you will accept it ?
"Warp factor eight taxes the Bird of Prey's engine." Oh, I see what you're trying to do. You aren't using a metaphor. Metaphor means applying a word to something that it doesn't normally apply to, implying a comparison or analogy. An example would be "A teacher plants the seeds of knowledge." Knowledge is not literally a living thing that grows from a planted seed, but you should be able to recognize an appropriate similarity with the phrase. However, you are doing something entirely different. You are using a word to mean something other than its definition. You are ignoring the clarification that tells us {rup} means "tax" as in "impose a tariff or duty", and you are trying to use another meaning of the English word "tax": encumber, burden, overload. Here's an example of metaphor in Klingon: {teSDu'wIj DuQ bo'Degh QoQ 'ej qa'wIj qajmoH.} -- ghunchu'wI'
maj. So, I guess the conclusion of this thread would be : "We can create metaphoric phrases, as long as each word within that phrase is used on its literal klingon definition ; we can't use single words metaphorically". qunnoq On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 8:08 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
ok, I'll play along.. So, if I say : {toQDuj QuQ ruptaH pIvlob chorgh} you will accept it ?
"Warp factor eight taxes the Bird of Prey's engine."
Oh, I see what you're trying to do. You aren't using a metaphor. Metaphor means applying a word to something that it doesn't normally apply to, implying a comparison or analogy. An example would be "A teacher plants the seeds of knowledge." Knowledge is not literally a living thing that grows from a planted seed, but you should be able to recognize an appropriate similarity with the phrase.
However, you are doing something entirely different. You are using a word to mean something other than its definition. You are ignoring the clarification that tells us {rup} means "tax" as in "impose a tariff or duty", and you are trying to use another meaning of the English word "tax": encumber, burden, overload.
Here's an example of metaphor in Klingon: {teSDu'wIj DuQ bo'Degh QoQ 'ej qa'wIj qajmoH.}
-- ghunchu'wI' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 11:50 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
So, I guess the conclusion of this thread would be :
"We can create metaphoric phrases, as long as each word within that phrase is used on its literal klingon definition ; we can't use single words metaphorically".
I don't even know how you would use a single word metaphorically. Metaphor requires a juxtaposition of words that invites an implicit comparison to something unstated. It usually suggests that two things are similar in some way, but unlike a simile it doesn't explicitly declare the resemblance. Your proposed example of a "debt haircut" makes no sense to me. I can't see how lent or borrowed money is in any way like hair. Looking it up, I see that the term "haircut" has a specific meaning in the financial context of a loan, but if the term originated as a metaphor, the intended reference is unknown to me. -- ghunchu'wI'
mayqel qunenoS :
So, I guess the conclusion of this thread would be :
"We can create metaphoric phrases, as long as each word within that phrase is used on its literal klingon definition ; we can't use single words metaphorically".
ghunchu'wI':
I don't even know how you would use a single word metaphorically. Metaphor requires a juxtaposition of words that invites an implicit comparison to something unstated. It usually suggests that two things are similar in some way, but unlike a simile it doesn't explicitly declare the resemblance.
Your proposed example of a "debt haircut" makes no sense to me. I can't see how lent or borrowed money is in any way like hair. Looking it up, I see that the term "haircut" has a specific meaning in the financial context of a loan, but if the term originated as a metaphor, the intended reference is unknown to me.
Okrand on {Hoch DuH yIqel} "consider every possibility!": (KGT 108): This is an idiom cloaked in the terminology of the military that has a wider application. It is used to mean "Consider every possibility" or "Consider every option," with the word {nuH} (weapon) standing metaphorically for possibility... Another example of a word used metaphorically - at least initially - may be {neb} "beak, bill (of a bird)" which may appear in {jorneb} "warhead (of a torpedo): (Qes, 6/27/2007): I find the idea of a torpedo or missile as a bird of prey diving at its target beak-first to be a rather apposite metaphor. It may also be the origin of {neb} "nozzle (like on the end of a hose, rocket, etc.)" revealed at qep'a' 2016. Whether these are examples of metaphor, idiom, or word play that caught on and became widely used (eg. a computer's "mouse" -> "mousepad") may be another matter entirely. Or as we say in Klingon: DaH may' bom pIm Dabom Now you sing a different battle song. (i.e. "Well, that's another matter altogether.") KGT -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
ghunchu'wI'
Metaphor requires a juxtaposition of words that invites an implicit comparison to something unstated.
oh this is beautiful ! I have no idea what it means, but it is beautiful ! qunnoq On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 8:24 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
mayqel qunenoS :
So, I guess the conclusion of this thread would be :
"We can create metaphoric phrases, as long as each word within that phrase is used on its literal klingon definition ; we can't use single words metaphorically".
ghunchu'wI':
I don't even know how you would use a single word metaphorically. Metaphor requires a juxtaposition of words that invites an implicit comparison to something unstated. It usually suggests that two things are similar in some way, but unlike a simile it doesn't explicitly declare the resemblance.
Your proposed example of a "debt haircut" makes no sense to me. I can't see how lent or borrowed money is in any way like hair. Looking it up, I see that the term "haircut" has a specific meaning in the financial context of a loan, but if the term originated as a metaphor, the intended reference is unknown to me.
Okrand on {Hoch DuH yIqel} "consider every possibility!":
(KGT 108): This is an idiom cloaked in the terminology of the military that has a wider application. It is used to mean "Consider every possibility" or "Consider every option," with the word {nuH} (weapon) standing metaphorically for possibility...
Another example of a word used metaphorically - at least initially - may be {neb} "beak, bill (of a bird)" which may appear in {jorneb} "warhead (of a torpedo):
(Qes, 6/27/2007): I find the idea of a torpedo or missile as a bird of prey diving at its target beak-first to be a rather apposite metaphor.
It may also be the origin of {neb} "nozzle (like on the end of a hose, rocket, etc.)" revealed at qep'a' 2016.
Whether these are examples of metaphor, idiom, or word play that caught on and became widely used (eg. a computer's "mouse" -> "mousepad") may be another matter entirely. Or as we say in Klingon:
DaH may' bom pIm Dabom Now you sing a different battle song. (i.e. "Well, that's another matter altogether.") KGT
-- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 5:15 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
On the other hand, we can't use klingon words metaphorically, because we always need to take them on their most myopic, strict, and narrow-minded meaning.
Who told you we can't use Klingon words metaphorically? Maybe you have misunderstood the warnings against trying to translate idiomatic phrases in another language literally. For example, {yopwaH bIDwIj yISop} isn't likely to carry the meaning intended by the English phrase it is translated from. But there's no problem using metaphor in Klingon. You do know what "metaphor" means, right? -- ghunchu'wI'
mayqel qunenoS:
So, we have the word {SorHa'}, meaning "to speak metaphorically". <...> But then, how is someone supposed to speak metaphorically ?
Two good metaphors come from Spock's intentionally confusing statement to the android Norman (TOS "I, Mudd"): "Logic is a little bird tweeting in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smells bad." {Sor} "speak literally" and {SorHa'} "speak metaphorically" may themselves be metaphors: (Qov, 7/29/2013): [Okrand] appears to agree that [{SorHa'}] implies {Sor} means "speak literally", and that this is connected to the expression {lugh; Sor rur} ["correct as a tree"]. As an added bonus, {Sor} is also a pun: (qurgh, 5/16/2016): I can tell you the pun ({Sor}) is one Okrand really likes, and it's not on the word "sure". I can't give any more, as I've been literally sworn to secrecy. I think qunnoq himself figured it out right after qurgh's clue: {Sor} -> shore -> littoral -> literal -> speak literally? -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
Obviously we are understanding differently the concept of what a metaphor actually is. The way I understand the whole matter, not only a phrase, but a word as well may be used metaphorically. We say "debt haircut" ; we don't mean that the debt of a country has hair, but we use the word "haircut" in a metaphoric way. That however, is something we cannot do in klingon, thus the original question of this thread. qunnoq On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
mayqel qunenoS:
So, we have the word {SorHa'}, meaning "to speak metaphorically". <...> But then, how is someone supposed to speak metaphorically ?
Two good metaphors come from Spock's intentionally confusing statement to the android Norman (TOS "I, Mudd"): "Logic is a little bird tweeting in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers that smells bad."
{Sor} "speak literally" and {SorHa'} "speak metaphorically" may themselves be metaphors:
(Qov, 7/29/2013): [Okrand] appears to agree that [{SorHa'}] implies {Sor} means "speak literally", and that this is connected to the expression {lugh; Sor rur} ["correct as a tree"].
As an added bonus, {Sor} is also a pun:
(qurgh, 5/16/2016): I can tell you the pun ({Sor}) is one Okrand really likes, and it's not on the word "sure". I can't give any more, as I've been literally sworn to secrecy.
I think qunnoq himself figured it out right after qurgh's clue:
{Sor} -> shore -> littoral -> literal -> speak literally?
-- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
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participants (5)
-
Alan Anderson -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel