Expressing must with imperatives
A while ago we talked about the nature of {-nIS} and how it differs from "must". And we discussed how we could work around this limitation through the use of {'ut} and {net poQ}. However something continued "not to feel right". A while ago I wrote: "when you're translating into klingon you must recreate the feeling of the original passage". If I wanted to write this using the above workarounds I should say {tlhIngan Hol DaghItlhmeH Hol nov DamughtaHvIS, Hol nov qa' Dachenqa'moH} and then add a {'ut}, or {net poQ}. But today I realized there is an additional way, which is perhaps even better.. What does the "must' express, if not an imperative of sorts ? When I say "you need to do this", often I mean "you must do this", and in other words I'm giving a command, only I choose to do it in a more kind manner. But since tlhIngan Hol, isn't the weak and indecisive DIvI' Hol, we could avoid altogether the {-nIS} and give the command. So, in above example, instead of the {tlhIngan Hol DaghItlhmeH Hol nov DamughtaHvIS, Hol nov qa' Dachenqa'moH, 'ut / net poQ} I could write: {tlhIngan Hol DaghItlhmeH Hol nov DamughtaHvIS, Hol nov qa' yIchenqa'moH}. and then, if it is necessary I could add a {'ut}, a {net poQ} or whatever else (although I think that they rarely would be). qunnoH jan puqloD
So, we could a. save the {-nIS} for only when we actually "need' to do something. b. use {'ut} and {net poQ}, when there is something (a law, an authority, a situation) which requires something of us. c. use an imperative when we want to address the "must" to others. Of course, all these depend greatly on context, but I believe they can be quite important and applicable guidelines. and because I'm almost certain someone will ask "what if you need to say the must to yourself ?", then the workaround is simple: "I must write this message" {qunnoHvaD jIjatlhta': QInvam yIghItlh} qunnoH jan puqloD On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 12:57 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
A while ago we talked about the nature of {-nIS} and how it differs from "must". And we discussed how we could work around this limitation through the use of {'ut} and {net poQ}.
However something continued "not to feel right".
A while ago I wrote: "when you're translating into klingon you must recreate the feeling of the original passage". If I wanted to write this using the above workarounds I should say {tlhIngan Hol DaghItlhmeH Hol nov DamughtaHvIS, Hol nov qa' Dachenqa'moH} and then add a {'ut}, or {net poQ}.
But today I realized there is an additional way, which is perhaps even better..
What does the "must' express, if not an imperative of sorts ? When I say "you need to do this", often I mean "you must do this", and in other words I'm giving a command, only I choose to do it in a more kind manner.
But since tlhIngan Hol, isn't the weak and indecisive DIvI' Hol, we could avoid altogether the {-nIS} and give the command.
So, in above example, instead of the
{tlhIngan Hol DaghItlhmeH Hol nov DamughtaHvIS, Hol nov qa' Dachenqa'moH, 'ut / net poQ}
I could write:
{tlhIngan Hol DaghItlhmeH Hol nov DamughtaHvIS, Hol nov qa' yIchenqa'moH}. and then, if it is necessary I could add a {'ut}, a {net poQ} or whatever else (although I think that they rarely would be).
qunnoH jan puqloD
On 11/24/2016 5:57 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
What does the "must' express, if not an imperative of sorts ? When I say "you need to do this", often I mean "you must do this"
Yes, that's what I've been trying to say about that.
I could write:
{tlhIngan Hol DaghItlhmeH Hol nov DamughtaHvIS, Hol nov qa' yIchenqa'moH}. and then, if it is necessary I could add a {'ut}, a {net poQ} or whatever else (although I think that they rarely would be).
If you're the one imposing something on someone else, yes, you can do this. But what if you're the one upon whom conditions have been placed? What if you're a third party who is neither imposer or imposee? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
But what if you're the one upon whom conditions have been placed? What if you're a third party who is neither imposer or imposee?
I would have to read specific examples for each of these two possibilities, in order to specify further how I would proceed. But if I try to approach these possibilities in general (and if I understand correctly what each of them describes), then: for the
if you're the one upon whom conditions have been placed?
I would describe the event from the view of him who imposes these conditions, and use the imperative. and for the
if you're a third party who is neither imposer or imposee?
I would have to see a specific example in order to reply; all I can think of now is describing the event from the imposee point of view by the use of imperative. do you have in mind specific examples for each one of these two possibilities ? qunnoH ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 24 Nov 2016 4:52 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 11/24/2016 5:57 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
What does the "must' express, if not an imperative of sorts ? When I say "you need to do this", often I mean "you must do this"
Yes, that's what I've been trying to say about that.
I could write:
{tlhIngan Hol DaghItlhmeH Hol nov DamughtaHvIS, Hol nov qa' yIchenqa'moH}. and then, if it is necessary I could add a {'ut}, a {net poQ} or whatever else (although I think that they rarely would be).
If you're the one imposing something on someone else, yes, you can do this. But what if you're the one upon whom conditions have been placed? What if you're a third party who is neither imposer or imposee?
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 11/24/2016 10:04 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
But what if you're the one upon whom conditions have been placed? What if you're a third party who is neither imposer or imposee?
do you have in mind specific examples for each one of these two possibilities ?
No, I'm just pointing out that rewording "must" as an imperative only works when the speaker is the one making commands. Why are you trying to come up with the one true way to say these things? Use the tools you've got to say the things you want in the best way you can. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
Why are you trying to come up with the one true way to say these things?
I'm trying to shed bad habits which have accumulated over time, such as using {-nIS} to express "must" regardless if it is the right thing to do. qunnoH On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 5:47 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 11/24/2016 10:04 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
But what if you're the one upon whom conditions have been placed? What if you're a third party who is neither imposer or imposee?
do you have in mind specific examples for each one of these two possibilities ?
No, I'm just pointing out that rewording "must" as an imperative only works when the speaker is the one making commands. Why are you trying to come up with the one true way to say these things? Use the tools you've got to say the things you want in the best way you can.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 11/24/2016 1:13 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
Why are you trying to come up with the one true way to say these things? I'm trying to shed bad habits which have accumulated over time, such as using {-nIS} to express "must" regardless if it is the right thing to do.
Remember that the discussion showed no perfect resolution to the issue of need/must for *-nIS.* If you do want to avoid using *-nIS* to mean /must,/ then simply do so, and use whatever other tools are appropriate for a given sentence. There is no single tool that is best. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
bIlugh jupwI' ! bIlughbej ! qunnoH jan puqloD On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 8:25 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 11/24/2016 1:13 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
Why are you trying to come up with the one true way to say these things?
I'm trying to shed bad habits which have accumulated over time, such as using {-nIS} to express "must" regardless if it is the right thing to do.
Remember that the discussion showed no perfect resolution to the issue of need/must for -nIS. If you do want to avoid using -nIS to mean must, then simply do so, and use whatever other tools are appropriate for a given sentence. There is no single tool that is best.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (2)
-
mayqel qunenoS -
SuStel