On 4/11/2019 11:54 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 11.04.2019 um 11:28 schrieb De'vID:
latter is perfectly clear. While Okrand's examples are brief, they were clearly chosen to disambiguate whether actual contact is included in the meaning of {SIch}.
Okrand wrote:
The intended meaning is (b), as in {paqvetlh DaSIchlaH'a'?} — maybe the book's on a high shelf. Or {paq vISIch 'e' vInID}, which could be translated "I reached for the book. The (a) meaning is covered by {paw}."
Okay, I got the point with {paw}, no discussion. But the question {paqvetlh DaSIchlaH'a'} asks whether the goal can be achieved, right? If {SIch} means only "reach for" in the sense of stretching your arm, then it does not include the touching. I can reach for the stars, but surely won't touch them.
*SIch* doesn't mean /reach for;/ it means /reach./ The /reach for/ interpretation only works for his example *paq vISIch 'e' vInID;* it's the *'e' vInID* that makes the accomplishment uncertain, the /reach for./ If you just said *paq vISIch,* you're saying you stretch out your hand and grasp the book. The correct sense of /reach/ in the Dictionary.com definition is number 3: "to succeed in touching or seizing with an outstretched hand, a pole, etc." This is what Okrand describes *SIch* as meaning. It's not clear to me whether it could also mean sense 5: "to stretch or extend so as to touch or meet"; can we say *'aqroS SIch yorghmey*/The bookcase reaches the ceiling?/ *Hovmey vISIch 'e' vInID*/I reach for the stars;/ literally /I try to reach the stars./ This would only be interpreted literally; the English idiom meaning /achieve the highest goal/ isn't expressed. It says I'm stretching out my hand in a (vain) attempt to grasp the stars.
So if {SIch} includes the touching, the answer to {DaSIchlaH'a'} is only 'yes' if I can touch. If {SIch} is only the movement ("reach-for-stars"), then the answer is always 'yes', unless my arm is broken. But if {SIch} includes both possibilities, both answers 'yes' and 'no' are always correct: I can always reach for something, even if I cannot reach it.
*SIch* includes the touching. The answer is only yes. *vItlhap*/I take it. /*vItlhap 'e' vInID*/I try to take it./ I take some kind of action to enable myself to take it. Same relationship. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name