[tlhIngan Hol] {'e'} of a sao and quotations

[SuStel]

On 8/19/2021 7:56 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
> I'm sorry, SuStel, I've to ask again on this matter, and don't 
> misunderstand me; I'm not trying to find a way to write nested 
> quotations. In fact, even if I could use them in klingon I wouldn't, 
> since the whole "he said that she said that they said.." gives me a 
> feeling of old grannies gossiping in the village.
>
> But it seems that I've stumbled here on something I ignored, so I'd 
> like to clarify this further.
>
> SuStel:
> > The real question is whether you can say 'e' yIja' tell that.
> > It seems that the answer is no. Whatever you want to report about is 
> either a noun or a quotation.
> jIH:
> > I'm afraid I can't understand this; doesn't the {'e'} of a sao serve 
> as a noun?
> SuStel:
> > 'e' is a pronoun. It stands in for a sentence, not a noun. When I 
> said "either a noun or a quotation," I meant exactly that.
>
> What I was about to ask next, was this:
>
> Ok, but we *can* write {ghaH vIja'pu'} for "I've told him". Isn't 
> {ghaH} a pronoun too? So why can't we say too {'e' yIja'}?
>
> The only explanation which came to mind, was that pronouns such as 
> {jIH}, {SoH}, {ghaH}, etc can function as nouns too, something which 
> the {'e'} of a sao can't do. The {jIH}, {SoH}, {ghaH}, etc are 
> pronouns and can be nouns too, but the {'e'} can only be a pronoun.

You are mistaking my description of observed canon for a rule. I'm not 
saying "the rule is that the object of *ja'* can be only a noun or a 
quotation." I'm saying we've only ever seen actual nouns or actual 
quotations as the thing *ja'* is referencing, with no sign of the 
standard sentence-as-object construction anywhere in sight.

The /rule/ is stated in TKD: "Similarly, with verbs of saying (/say, 
tell, ask,/ etc.), *'e'* and *net* are not used. The two phrases simply 
follow one another, in either order."

So we have the basic rule, and we haven't seen any exceptions to the 
rule. We've seen nouns be the object of *ja'* and we've seen *ja'* work 
with quotations.

*neH* has a similar rule, but we've seen an exception to it in /Star 
Trek VI,/ where Azetbur says *'e' neHbe' vavoy.* So I'm not about to 
state that it's impossible that *ja'* can have an exception to it as 
well. But we haven't seen this exception so far, so I'm also not about 
to state that exceptions occur.

The bottom line: don't use *'e'* with quotations.

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name

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