[tlhIngan Hol] Punctuation

SuStel sustel at trimboli.name
Tue May 21 12:36:10 PDT 2019

On 5/21/2019 1:54 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
>> On 5/21/2019 12:42 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
>>> Am 21.05.2019 um 18:28 schrieb SuStel:
>>>> I'm saying that Lieven's intuitive feeling about what Klingonists 
>>>> agree
>>>> on should not be taken as a mandate. mayqel cited that page as if 
>>>> it is
>>>> authoritative, or at least asking why he should do what it advises.
> Am 21.05.2019 um 18:58 schrieb SuStel:
>> I stand corrected. Someone else wrote about their intuitive feeling, and
>> you copied it.
> "intuitive feeling" is a word I copied from your message. See above.

I know I used that term. I meant it. Whoever wrote that message about 
Klingonists agreeing didn't perform any kind of survey or study that I'm 
aware of; they just kinda figured that enough Klingonists used 
punctuation that they could say Klingonists "agree" on it.

And I'm not disputing that. I'm saying I don't know of any official 
count of who agrees with this or what kind of official weight that count 
would actually have.

Do you know of any such survey?

>> The FAQ copied onto your wiki simply says we can use punctuation. It
>> then links to another page that was not part of the FAQ.
> Yes, true. It links to a page that was /taken from/ the FAQ and then
> moved to the other page for better readability. I will add that quote to
> make you understand that better.

And then edited by who knows how many people, potentially. You cannot 
use as your policy document a web page that anyone can edit, because 
then anyone can edit your policy. The wiki page cannot compel anyone 
with the force of list policy.

>> And given that anyone can edit your wiki, it can't possibly be
>> considered authoritative for this list. And if it is, I'm going to start
>> editing it with some truly ridiculous ideas, just to mess with everyone,
>> and they'll have to be considered the rules of the list.
> That's like saying one should not read Wikipedia because everyone can
> edit it. You really enjoy twisting my words in my mouth.

First of all, I wasn't originally talking to you; you butted in when you 
read your name. Calibrate your words before offering them.

Second, reading Wikipedia is not the same as believing a wiki page is 
the basis of some kind of policy or convention outlining how you have to 
use language. I'm perfectly free to ignore anything I might read on 
Wikipedia, but if someone declares the wiki page as official policy for 
this list, I have to modify my behavior according to that policy.

Third, Wikilobbying: 

> The intention of an open source encyclopedia is that experienced people
> can work on it and make corrections and additions where necessary. Just
> like in Wikipedia, if any nonsense is added, there will be enough other
> people to correct it.

I am familiar with the principle.

>> Whether Okrand has used punctuation is irrelevant. We were using
>> punctuation in Klingon sentences long before Okrand ever did. This is
>> not an argument about canon.
> WUT? We were using the word {pemHov} long before Okrand suggested {jul}.
> We were using word incorrectly before Okrand clairifed them. How can
> Okrand's punctuation be irrelevant? Are you drunk? 

I don't drink.

Klingons speak Klingon words. Klingons don't use English punctuation. 
Whether and how you choose to employ English punctuation in your Klingon 
sentences is your own business, not Okrand's.

In TKD section 6.2.2 Okrand translates *DIHIvpu'*//as /we attacked 
them,/ not /We attacked them./ His use of a lowercase letter is not 
significant. There is nothing more canonically correct about writing the 
translation of *DIHIvpu'*//with a lowercase /w/ than with a capital /W./

In section 5.5 he translates *majQa'* as /Very good. Well done. /and 
*toH* /Well! So!/ There is nothing significant in his choice to use 
periods for *majqa'* and exclamation points for *toH.* You can use 
periods or exclamation points as you like. It's irrelevant what appears 
in the canon.

Okrand DOES use punctuation for Klingon in one place in TKD: the verso 
of the title page, in which there are em dashes before each Klingon 
phrase. This does not mean that Klingons place any importance on em 
dashes under any specific circumstance — it's likely that Okrand didn't 
even choose anything about the layout of this page.

What punctuation Okrand has used in canon has exactly zero applicability 
to how we use punctuation for Klingon. Punctuate it however you like has 
been his message since then.

mayqel's concern is that he's supposed to be following some kind of 
established rules of punctuation, and I'm telling him that while there 
are indeed punctuation conventions that people are comfortable with, 
these are not mandated by Okrand. It is not clear to me whether this 
list mandates any punctuation beyond marking foreign terms that have 
been transliterated, but if it does that mandate shouldn't be kept on an 
editable wiki page.


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