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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/21/2019 1:54 PM, Lieven L. Litaer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:69ebdc1c-f3c6-331f-35d9-c641b191716b@gmx.de">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">On 5/21/2019 12:42
PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">Am 21.05.2019 um
18:28 schrieb SuStel:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">I'm saying
that Lieven's intuitive feeling about what Klingonists agree
<br>
on should not be taken as a mandate. mayqel cited that page
as if it is
<br>
authoritative, or at least asking why he should do what it
advises.
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
Am 21.05.2019 um 18:58 schrieb SuStel:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">I stand corrected.
Someone else wrote about their intuitive feeling, and
<br>
you copied it.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
"intuitive feeling" is a word I copied from your message. See
above.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>I know I used that term. I meant it. Whoever wrote that message
about Klingonists agreeing didn't perform any kind of survey or
study that I'm aware of; they just kinda figured that enough
Klingonists used punctuation that they could say Klingonists
"agree" on it.</p>
<p>And I'm not disputing that. I'm saying I don't know of any
official count of who agrees with this or what kind of official
weight that count would actually have.</p>
<p>Do you know of any such survey?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:69ebdc1c-f3c6-331f-35d9-c641b191716b@gmx.de">
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">The FAQ copied
onto your wiki simply says we can use punctuation. It
<br>
then links to another page that was not part of the FAQ.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, true. It links to a page that was <i class="moz-txt-slash"><span
class="moz-txt-tag">/</span>taken from<span
class="moz-txt-tag">/</span></i> the FAQ and then
<br>
moved to the other page for better readability. I will add that
quote to
<br>
make you understand that better.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>And then edited by who knows how many people, potentially. You
cannot use as your policy document a web page that anyone can
edit, because then anyone can edit your policy. The wiki page
cannot compel anyone with the force of list policy.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:69ebdc1c-f3c6-331f-35d9-c641b191716b@gmx.de">
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">And given that
anyone can edit your wiki, it can't possibly be
<br>
considered authoritative for this list. And if it is, I'm going
to start
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">editing it with
some truly ridiculous ideas, just to mess with everyone,
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">and they'll have
to be considered the rules of the list.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
That's like saying one should not read Wikipedia because everyone
can
<br>
edit it. You really enjoy twisting my words in my mouth.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>First of all, I wasn't originally talking to you; you butted in
when you read your name. Calibrate your words before offering
them.<br>
</p>
<p>Second, reading Wikipedia is not the same as believing a wiki
page is the basis of some kind of policy or convention outlining
how you have to use language. I'm perfectly free to ignore
anything I might read on Wikipedia, but if someone declares the
wiki page as official policy for this list, I have to modify my
behavior according to that policy.</p>
<p>Third, Wikilobbying: <a
href="http://www.cc.com/video-clips/6p6df7/the-colbert-report-the-word---wikilobbying">http://www.cc.com/video-clips/6p6df7/the-colbert-report-the-word---wikilobbying</a></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:69ebdc1c-f3c6-331f-35d9-c641b191716b@gmx.de">
The intention of an open source encyclopedia is that experienced
people
<br>
can work on it and make corrections and additions where necessary.
Just
<br>
like in Wikipedia, if any nonsense is added, there will be enough
other
<br>
people to correct it.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>I am familiar with the principle.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:69ebdc1c-f3c6-331f-35d9-c641b191716b@gmx.de">
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">Whether Okrand has
used punctuation is irrelevant. We were using
<br>
punctuation in Klingon sentences long before Okrand ever did.
This is
<br>
not an argument about canon.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
WUT? We were using the word {pemHov} long before Okrand suggested
{jul}.
<br>
We were using word incorrectly before Okrand clairifed them. How
can
<br>
Okrand's punctuation be irrelevant? Are you drunk?
</blockquote>
<p>I don't drink.</p>
<p>Klingons speak Klingon words. Klingons don't use English
punctuation. Whether and how you choose to employ English
punctuation in your Klingon sentences is your own business, not
Okrand's.</p>
<p>In TKD section 6.2.2 Okrand translates <b>DIHIvpu'</b><i> </i>as
<i>we attacked them,</i> not <i>We attacked them.</i> His use of
a lowercase letter is not significant. There is nothing more
canonically correct about writing the translation of <b>DIHIvpu'</b><i>
</i>with a lowercase <i>w</i> than with a capital <i>W.</i></p>
<p>In section 5.5 he translates <b>majQa'</b> as <i>Very good.
Well done. </i>and <b>toH</b> <i>Well! So!</i> There is
nothing significant in his choice to use periods for <b>majqa'</b>
and exclamation points for <b>toH.</b> You can use periods or
exclamation points as you like. It's irrelevant what appears in
the canon.</p>
<p>Okrand DOES use punctuation for Klingon in one place in TKD: the
verso of the title page, in which there are em dashes before each
Klingon phrase. This does not mean that Klingons place any
importance on em dashes under any specific circumstance — it's
likely that Okrand didn't even choose anything about the layout of
this page.</p>
<p>What punctuation Okrand has used in canon has exactly zero
applicability to how we use punctuation for Klingon. Punctuate it
however you like has been his message since then.</p>
<p>mayqel's concern is that he's supposed to be following some kind
of established rules of punctuation, and I'm telling him that
while there are indeed punctuation conventions that people are
comfortable with, these are not mandated by Okrand. It is not
clear to me whether this list mandates any punctuation beyond
marking foreign terms that have been transliterated, but if it
does that mandate shouldn't be kept on an editable wiki page.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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