Hugh:

I don’t think we have any grounds for allowing {nuq Dochvam}

We have the {nuq mI'lIj} from CK. - bara'qa'

De'vID:

What's the difference between "What is this?" and "This is what?" What's the difference between "Who are you?" and "You are who?"

Indeed.. I don't see no difference between them two options. Was just wondering though, if they was equally correct, is all.. However, being on the subject, there's another good ask. There's the {nuq mI'lIj}, and there's the {nuq 'oH mI'lIj'e'}. Is the {nuq 'oH mI'lIj'e'} more "formal" than the {nuq mI'lIj} ? ~ bara'qa'

On 10/9/2019 1:13 PM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:

There's the {nuq mI'lIj}, and there's the {nuq 'oH mI'lIj'e'}.

Is the {nuq 'oH mI'lIj'e'} more "formal" than the {nuq mI'lIj} ?

Given that we know *nuqDaq puchpa'* is the clipped version of *nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e',* I would expect *nuq mI'lIj* to be the clipped version of *nuq 'oH mI'lIj'e'.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

On 10/9/2019 10:44 PM, Will Martin wrote:

I think that clipped Klingon is most appropriate when there is urgency to the message, as in battle. If someone says {nuqDaq puchpa’}, then point to the bathroom and get out of the way.

I don’t see {nuq mI’lIj} as obviously urgent, unless shouted by a suspicious guard pointing the unfriendly end of a nasty weapon at you.

In other settings, I’d just consider it poor grammar spoken by an illiterate, uneducated, backwoods peasant, or maybe a local who is speaking loud and slow for a tourist he considers an idiot who has to look up every word in a guidebook.

We have quite extensive information about when to use Clipped Klingon. /The Klingon Dictionary/ describes Clipped Klingon as a form of day-to-day language, as opposed to the language taught formally to non-Klingons. It says it is used frequently in military contexts where quick communication is needed. It says Clipped Klingon is also used extensively in all other contexts, implicitly linking the Klingon lifestyle to military matters. /Power Klingon/ tells us that the prevailing form of speech during battles is Clipped Klingon. It recommends using Clipped Klingon in everyday speech to show an allegiance to military jargon. It can also be used to express urgency. /Klingon for the Galactic Traveler/ tells us that a bat'leth instructor will generally issue commands in Clipped Klingon. It describes some rituals that use clipped words in them. It again describes how Clipped Klingon is used in battle situations, and adds contexts in which standard phrases are expected to be heard. It says that because you may not be able to properly interpret Clipped Klingon if you don't already know what the phrase is supposed to say, its use is typically only found in such times. It describes times when Clipped Klingon would be inappropriate, such as ordering a drink at a bar if your desired drink isn't already known. It illustrates switching from Clipped Klingon to full Klingon to express annoyance and to challenge one's honor. We're told that Clipped Klingon is often used in song lyrics, partly to fit the meter, partly because songs are often associated with battle, and partly to enable useful ambiguities. Given all that, I would say it's pretty clear that the hotel desk manager who asks *nuq mI'lIj?* isn't expressing any annoyance with an ignorant tourist and isn't evidence of a backwater dialect; they're simply employing Clipped Klingon in a very routine part of their jobs in a way consistent with what we're told. A guest with a reservation shows up, so the desk clerk asks the very standard question, "What number?" -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

bara'qa': There's the {nuq mI'lIj}, and there's the {nuq 'oH mI'lIj'e'}. Is the {nuq 'oH mI'lIj'e'} more "formal" than the {nuq mI'lIj} ? I should have just answered both in the same email, but here we are. In my view point... {nuq mI'lIj?} is incorrect grammatically, but generally accepted by most Klingons as a common informal way to ask. {mI'lIj nuq?} is informal and grammatically formed, but sounds a little odd because the question word isn't at the beginning. {nuq 'oH mI'lIj'e'?} is formal and grammatical - the proper way to ask, but maybe a little too proper for many situations. {mI'lIj 'oH nuq'e'?} is grammatical but very odd - it's not really wrong, just very weird - a bit like "You were talking with whom?" instead of "Who were you talking with?"

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 14:09, Hugh Son puqloD <Hugh@qeylis.net> wrote:

...

On Oct 12, 2019, at 06:37, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:

{mI'lIj 'oH nuq'e'?} is grammatical but very odd - it's not really wrong, just very weird - a bit like "You were talking with whom?" instead of "Who were you talking with?"

I’ve actually wondered about this form on a few occasions. In Conversational Klingon, one of the speech samples of the unidentified dialect which resembles Morskan is: {Sojvets 'o nuq}, and it’s explained that this sentence rendered in the standard dialect would be {Sojvetlh 'oH nuq'e'}. The form is, of course, identical to the canonical Morskan sentence {Dujvets 'o nuq} from Star Trek VI, so it can be presumed that that sentence would be {Dujvetlh 'oH nuq'e'} in {ta' Hol}.

However, outside of these examples, I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a canonical question in the form {<noun> 'oH <question pronoun>'e'}. I suppose the examples of the other forms we have like {nuq 'oH ponglIj'e'} and {HoD 'Iv} are pretty rare so that could just be due to small sample size.

{DevwI' ghaH 'Iv'e'} was in the shooting script for Star Trek Into Darkness. This was overdubbed into {jIvuylaH; jIve'} in the finished version of the film, but the original line was written by Okrand, and appears in some bonus features / documentaries. It is, however, spoken by Uhura and not a Klingon, though we're told that this version of Uhura is fluent (or at least competent) in Klingon. Since it was cut, it's not canon, but it may give some indication of what Okrand thinks of the {<noun> <pronoun> <question pronoun>'e'} pattern. -- De'vID

With regards to this matter I've wondered, how one would translate the {vIghro' tIQ 'oH nuq'e'}, if he were to consider the "as for (go figure)" meaning of a {y 'oH x'e'} sentence. If we write {nuq 'oH vIghro' tIQ'e'}, then this would mean "as for an ancient cat, what is it ?" But if we was to write {vIghro' tIQ 'oH nuq'e'}, then perhaps it would be strange to say "as for what is an ancient cat ?". Anyways, not that I understand this perfectly, and since both them options are grammatically legit, then no worries, right ? But it would be good to know, what's the story here. ~~ bara'qa'

De'vID:

What are you expecting as the answer? If it's {X 'oH vIghro' tIQ'e'}, ask {nuq 'oH vIghro' tIQ'e'}; if it's {vIghro' tIQ 'oH X'e'}, ask {vIghro' tIQ 'oH nuq'e'}.

oh, that's an interesting approach indeed. Now this whole thing makes sense. Thanks. -- bara'qa'