More on {-moH} and tritransitive verbs
Starting with what we know well: 1. Intransitive -> Transitive {yIt K} "K walks" {K yItmoH F} "F makes K walk" / "F walks K" 2. Transitive -> Ditransitive {X ghoj K} "K learns X" {KvaD X ghojmoH F} "F makes K learn X" / "F teaches X to K" And now the step to the unknown: 3. Ditransitive -> Tritransitive {ZvaD X nob K} "K gives X to Z" Goal: "F makes K give X to Z" 3.1. By the logic "expand 2. above," we start with "F makes K give X": {KvaD X nobmoH F} Then we need to insert Z somehow *{ZvaD KvaD X nobmoH F} is clearly ambiguous *{Z'e' KvaD X nobmoH F} "As for Z, F makes K give X" 3.2. By the logic "keep existing objects and make the original subject as close as possible," we start with *{Zvad X nobmoH F} and need to insert K somehow *{K'e' ZvaD X nobmoH F}? note that if this logic applies, then we cannot mechanically translate this "As for K, F makes Z give X" just as {KvaD X ghojmoH F} does not mean *"F makes X learn for K" but "F makes K learn X" 3.3. Lieven's suggestion *{X'e' ZvaD K nobmoH F} ...if would be so much easier if {KvaD X ghojmoH F} were *{X'e' K ghojmoH F}... but this does not exclude that the tritransitive construction, if any, works this way 3.4. Semantically, what about *{ZvaD Kvo' X noblu'moH F} or *{Kvo' ZvaD X noblu'moH F}? however, itdoes not seem so easy to use this approach with {'ang} or {cha'} 3.5. [rant] And now remove F, add {-wI'}, and consider using it as a heading. [/rant] P.S. To avoid confusion: {mayqel qunenoS} and I are different persons.
Now I know how many variables I can keep straight when they are represent words in a sentence. Three. As for your examples in 3.1 through 3.3, they're all ambiguous. But any one of them would work if Klingons agreed upon it. Even putting {-vaD} on both Z and K, if the order of the two had significance. In fact, I'd expect K to come before Z, as you placed them, since K and Z would be the indirect object and subject, respectively, of a sentence that omits the role of F. Two things about 3.4 make it unworkable. First of all, a verb with {-lu'} lacks a subject, so F can't follow it. Second, according to TKD and all (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) canon examples, {-vo'} is only used when there is actual motion, so it won't work if gift is non-portable, and as you seem to suspect, wouldn't work with {'ang} or {cha'} anyway, because they generally don't involve motion away from the subject. I fail to understand 3.5, but as rants go, it's blessedly short and mild. ~mIp'av
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
Second, according to TKD and all (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) canon examples, {-vo'} is only used when there is actual motion...
Conversational Klingon has a contradictory example: {pa'vo' pagh leghlu'} "The room has no view." -- ghunchu'wI'
Ah, and TKD doesn't say quite what I remembered it saying: {-vo'} <from> This suffix is similar to {-Daq} but is used only when action is in a direction away from the noun suffixed with {-vo'.} I mistook "action" for motion, since that's usually the kind of action involved. The action must still take place along a path through physical space, though, correct? You couldn't say *{vavnI'wI'vo' Du'vam vIHevpu'} for instance, could you? ~mIp'av On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 10:01 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
Second, according to TKD and all (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) canon examples, {-vo'} is only used when there is actual motion...
Conversational Klingon has a contradictory example: {pa'vo' pagh leghlu'} "The room has no view."
-- ghunchu'wI'
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"from my grandfather I have received this farm": it is "from" in the sense that it ceased to be his property, likely due to death and inheritance. P.S. Is there a word for "inherit"? Once I expressed *I inherited it" by Heghmo' vIHevpu' = "I have received it due to death", or similar. ----Original message----
From : bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com Date : 09/12/2016 - 04:38 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] More on {-moH} and tritransitive verbs Ah, and TKD doesn't say quite what I remembered it saying: {-vo'} <from> This suffix is similar to {-Daq} but is used only when action is in a direction away from the noun suffixed with {-vo'.} I mistook "action" for motion, since that's usually the kind of action involved. The action must still take place along a path through physical space, though, correct? You couldn't say *{vavnI'wI'vo' Du'vam vIHevpu'} for instance, could you?
On 9 December 2016 at 05:38, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
Ah, and TKD doesn't say quite what I remembered it saying: {-vo'} <from>
This suffix is similar to {-Daq} but is used only when action is in a direction away from the noun suffixed with {-vo'.}
I mistook "action" for motion, since that's usually the kind of action involved. The action must still take place along a path through physical space, though, correct? You couldn't say *{vavnI'wI'vo' Du'vam vIHevpu'} for instance, could you?
In a universe with transporter technology, one *could* say that. It just wouldn't mean mere transfer of ownership. -- De'vID
Am 09.12.2016 um 04:01 schrieb Alan Anderson:
Conversational Klingon has a contradictory example: {pa'vo' pagh leghlu'} "The room has no view."
I first read "Controversial Klingon" ;-) I think in that case, {-vo'} is used in combination with to {legh} to indicate the direction of seeing: Your look starts in the room and goes in the direction of outside. When I'd say {pa'Daq pagh leghlu'}, it's wrong, because you surely can see things IN the room. But FROM there to somewhere else, you do not see anything. I think there are many other things you can do "from" a room: yell, shoot, throw things, send data, etc... -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
participants (6)
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De'vID -
Ed Bailey -
Lieven -
Michael Kúnin