Something on the {vabDot}
At this canon sentence: Qo'noS romuluS je boSuqlaH. vabDot tera' Qejbogh DIvI' ram boSuqlaH. kronos, romulus and even the puny federation's precious earth, are all up for grabs. The {vabDot} is referring to the {boSuqlaH}, right ? qunnoH jan puqloD
The usual assumption is that {vabDot} is an adverbial meaning "even", in the sense of emphasizing that something unexpected is indeed the case. But we have no idea for sure, since Okrand's never given us a gloss of the word. We don't even know 100% what part of speech it is. (Another word in that sentence, {Qej}, also has an unknown precise meaning, though at least we know it's a verb because of the -bogh.) On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 12:35 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At this canon sentence:
Qo'noS romuluS je boSuqlaH. vabDot tera' Qejbogh DIvI' ram boSuqlaH. kronos, romulus and even the puny federation's precious earth, are all up for grabs.
The {vabDot} is referring to the {boSuqlaH}, right ?
qunnoH jan puqloD _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Having said that, on the assumption that it is an adverbial meaning "even", I think it would make sense for it to be modifying the {boSuqlaH}. Otherwise, if it modified the relative clause, it would be something like "You can obtain the Earth, which even the puny Federation cherishes". On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 12:56 PM, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
The usual assumption is that {vabDot} is an adverbial meaning "even", in the sense of emphasizing that something unexpected is indeed the case. But we have no idea for sure, since Okrand's never given us a gloss of the word. We don't even know 100% what part of speech it is. (Another word in that sentence, {Qej}, also has an unknown precise meaning, though at least we know it's a verb because of the -bogh.)
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 12:35 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At this canon sentence:
Qo'noS romuluS je boSuqlaH. vabDot tera' Qejbogh DIvI' ram boSuqlaH. kronos, romulus and even the puny federation's precious earth, are all up for grabs.
The {vabDot} is referring to the {boSuqlaH}, right ?
qunnoH jan puqloD _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
if we consider vabDot to mean "even, moreover, including", then I think it makes sense to consider that it refers to the {boSuqlaH}, giving the meaning "you're even able to acquire" or "moreover you're able to acquire". but indeed, all this is speculation; however if it is an adverb then it *has* to refer to the {boSuqlaH}, right ? it is the only verb of the sentence it would be able to refer to. the other verb is the {Qej}, which is entangled in the {-bogh} thing (I don't know the grammar term), so it cannot be referring to that.. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 8 Dec 2016 7:56 pm, "nIqolay Q" <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
The usual assumption is that {vabDot} is an adverbial meaning "even", in the sense of emphasizing that something unexpected is indeed the case. But we have no idea for sure, since Okrand's never given us a gloss of the word. We don't even know 100% what part of speech it is. (Another word in that sentence, {Qej}, also has an unknown precise meaning, though at least we know it's a verb because of the -bogh.)
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 12:35 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At this canon sentence:
Qo'noS romuluS je boSuqlaH. vabDot tera' Qejbogh DIvI' ram boSuqlaH. kronos, romulus and even the puny federation's precious earth, are all up for grabs.
The {vabDot} is referring to the {boSuqlaH}, right ?
qunnoH jan puqloD _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
nIqolay Q:
"You can obtain the Earth, which even the puny Federation cherishes".
hahaha ! this is perfect ! qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 8 Dec 2016 8:03 pm, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
if we consider vabDot to mean "even, moreover, including", then I think it makes sense to consider that it refers to the {boSuqlaH}, giving the meaning "you're even able to acquire" or "moreover you're able to acquire".
but indeed, all this is speculation; however if it is an adverb then it *has* to refer to the {boSuqlaH}, right ? it is the only verb of the sentence it would be able to refer to. the other verb is the {Qej}, which is entangled in the {-bogh} thing (I don't know the grammar term), so it cannot be referring to that..
qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 8 Dec 2016 7:56 pm, "nIqolay Q" <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
The usual assumption is that {vabDot} is an adverbial meaning "even", in the sense of emphasizing that something unexpected is indeed the case. But we have no idea for sure, since Okrand's never given us a gloss of the word. We don't even know 100% what part of speech it is. (Another word in that sentence, {Qej}, also has an unknown precise meaning, though at least we know it's a verb because of the -bogh.)
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 12:35 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At this canon sentence:
Qo'noS romuluS je boSuqlaH. vabDot tera' Qejbogh DIvI' ram boSuqlaH. kronos, romulus and even the puny federation's precious earth, are all up for grabs.
The {vabDot} is referring to the {boSuqlaH}, right ?
qunnoH jan puqloD _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 1:03 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
but indeed, all this is speculation; however if it is an adverb then it *has* to refer to the {boSuqlaH}, right ? it is the only verb of the sentence it would be able to refer to. the other verb is the {Qej}, which is entangled in the {-bogh} thing (I don't know the grammar term), so it cannot be referring to that..
The {-bogh} thing is a relative clause. And relative clauses can take adverbials; for instance, {nom lengbogh Duj} "ship that travels quickly" is how you say "fast ship". In the Monopoly sentence, {vabDot} could theoretically apply to either verb. We know it goes with {boSuqlaH} because the alternative "Earth, which even the puny Federation cherishes" makes less sense in context.
nIqolay Q:
And relative clauses can take adverbials; for instance, {nom lengbogh Duj} "ship that travels quickly" is how you say "fast ship".
ok, wait a second.. an adverb can refer to the verb of a {-bogh} thing (or clause) ? so far I believed that an adverb can only refer to the main verb of a sentence ! lets write an example reH bo'Degh Sopbogh vIghro''e' legh Human. the human always sees the cat which eats the bird. this is the only meaning I thought was possible ! is it possible in this sentence the {reH} to refer to the {Sopbogh} thus giving the meaning "the human sees the cat which always eats the bird" ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 8 Dec 2016 8:17 pm, "nIqolay Q" <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 1:03 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
but indeed, all this is speculation; however if it is an adverb then it *has* to refer to the {boSuqlaH}, right ? it is the only verb of the sentence it would be able to refer to. the other verb is the {Qej}, which is entangled in the {-bogh} thing (I don't know the grammar term), so it cannot be referring to that..
The {-bogh} thing is a relative clause. And relative clauses can take adverbials; for instance, {nom lengbogh Duj} "ship that travels quickly" is how you say "fast ship". In the Monopoly sentence, {vabDot} could theoretically apply to either verb. We know it goes with {boSuqlaH} because the alternative "Earth, which even the puny Federation cherishes" makes less sense in context.
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 12/8/2016 1:26 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
nIqolay Q:
And relative clauses can take adverbials; for instance, {nom lengbogh Duj} "ship that travels quickly" is how you say "fast ship".
ok, wait a second.. an adverb can refer to the verb of a {-bogh} thing (or clause) ?
so far I believed that an adverb can only refer to the main verb of a sentence !
lets write an example
reH bo'Degh Sopbogh vIghro''e' legh Human. the human always sees the cat which eats the bird.
this is the only meaning I thought was possible !
is it possible in this sentence the {reH} to refer to the {Sopbogh} thus giving the meaning "the human sees the cat which always eats the bird" ?
HIja'. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
HIja'.
so, in the sentence: reH bo'Degh Sopbogh vIghro''e' legh Human. how do we distinguish, where the adverb actually is referring to ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 8 Dec 2016 10:03 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 12/8/2016 1:26 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
nIqolay Q:
And relative clauses can take adverbials; for instance, {nom lengbogh Duj} "ship that travels quickly" is how you say "fast ship".
ok, wait a second.. an adverb can refer to the verb of a {-bogh} thing (or clause) ?
so far I believed that an adverb can only refer to the main verb of a sentence !
lets write an example
reH bo'Degh Sopbogh vIghro''e' legh Human. the human always sees the cat which eats the bird.
this is the only meaning I thought was possible !
is it possible in this sentence the {reH} to refer to the {Sopbogh} thus giving the meaning "the human sees the cat which always eats the bird" ?
HIja'.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 12/8/2016 3:07 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
HIja'.
so, in the sentence:
reH bo'Degh Sopbogh vIghro''e' legh Human.
how do we distinguish, where the adverb actually is referring to ?
I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I guess this means that the only ways to distinguish what's happening is through context, and if absolutely necessary use more sentences, right ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 8 Dec 2016 10:24 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 12/8/2016 3:07 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
HIja'.
so, in the sentence:
reH bo'Degh Sopbogh vIghro''e' legh Human.
how do we distinguish, where the adverb actually is referring to ?
I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 3:07 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SuStel:
HIja'.
so, in the sentence:
reH bo'Degh Sopbogh vIghro''e' legh Human.
how do we distinguish, where the adverb actually is referring to ?
In speech I'd probably pause briefly in different places depending on which verb the adverbial applied to: "reH bo'Degh Sopbogh vIghro''e'... legh Human." to emphasize that it's applied to the relative clause, and "reH... bo'Degh Sopbogh vIghro''e' legh Human." to emphasize that it's applied to the main verb. (Would other Klingonists interpret spoken Klingon in this way?) In written text, if context doesn't make it obvious, and if the ambiguity could potentially be confusing or hazardous, I'd just rephrase it as two sentences. {reH bo'Degh Sop vIghro'. vIghro'vetlh legh Human.} vs {bo'Degh Sop vIghro'. reH vIghro'vetlh legh Human.}
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 12:35 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At this canon sentence:
Qo'noS romuluS je boSuqlaH. vabDot tera' Qejbogh DIvI' ram boSuqlaH. kronos, romulus and even the puny federation's precious earth, are all up for grabs.
The {vabDot} is referring to the {boSuqlaH}, right ?
If {vabDot} is an adverbial, then the English sentence implies that it applies to {boSuqlaH}. If {vabDot} is a noun, then it goes with {tera'} in a genitive (noun-noun "possessive") relationship. Without more examples or explicit revelation from the language's creator, we lack certainty. -- ghunchu'wI'
Adverbials and adverbs don't always just have to refer to the verb if the sentence. Often they modify the whole sentence and not only the verb. So {vabDot} could simply say something about the whole expression following it. -André On 9 Dec 2016 03:49, "Alan Anderson" <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 12:35 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At this canon sentence:
Qo'noS romuluS je boSuqlaH. vabDot tera' Qejbogh DIvI' ram boSuqlaH. kronos, romulus and even the puny federation's precious earth, are all up for grabs.
The {vabDot} is referring to the {boSuqlaH}, right ?
If {vabDot} is an adverbial, then the English sentence implies that it applies to {boSuqlaH}. If {vabDot} is a noun, then it goes with {tera'} in a genitive (noun-noun "possessive") relationship.
Without more examples or explicit revelation from the language's creator, we lack certainty.
-- ghunchu'wI'
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participants (5)
-
Alan Anderson -
André Müller -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
SuStel