I have been reading the KGT section about visual arts. I have some doubts, that probably many of you can clarify. The KGT explicitly says there is no word for color as such. But how can I ask what color is something? The nguv verb can be used, but it is not clear to me if it includes naturally occurring colors, as the definition is "is dyed, is tinted, is stained". What about the natural color of an object? Is chay' nguv tera' naran? still an option? Can I use to describe the color of something? The notes says it is rarely used, but would something like this work? DaHjaj Doqqu' nguv tlhom! Regarding nguvmoH: the direct object is the thing being colored, can I use the color as an indirect object? Can it be used for natural processes? That is, is this a valid construct? Doqvad chal nguvmoH jajlo'. Well, I suppose I could use simply: chal DoqmoH jajlo'. Still, it would be nice if someone could confirm the meaning of an indirect object with nguv. An odd thing for me was that SuDqu' means green; I expected to be a color at the opposite end of the spectrum, and to indicate blue. Anyway, that made me think of how to say yellow and orange instead; Would Doq dochvam, 'ach tlhoS SuD work for orange/orange yellow or SuD, 'ach tlhoS Doq for yellow, maybe close to orange? The KGT indicates Sud 'ej wov for yellow, but it looks ambiguous... Could't it indicate light blue or light green as well? Finally... grays. I have seen qIj 'ej wov to indicate gray. I suppose that works. Can I use chIs 'ach loQ Hurg/loQ wovbe' for light gray? -- Luciano Montanaro Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams
On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 at 10:26, Luciano Montanaro <mikelima@gmail.com> wrote:
I have been reading the KGT section about visual arts. I have some doubts, that probably many of you can clarify.
The KGT explicitly says there is no word for color as such.
But how can I ask what color is something?
Doq'a'? SuD'a'?
The nguv verb can be used, but it is not clear to me if it includes naturally occurring colors, as the definition is "is dyed, is tinted, is stained". What about the natural color of an object? Is
chay' nguv tera' naran?
still an option?
I don't know if it can be used to describe the natural colour of an object, but I'd understand that question if you asked me. Also, consider the verbs {but} and {pargh}.
Can I use to describe the color of something? The notes says it is rarely used, but would something like this work?
DaHjaj Doqqu' nguv tlhom!
What is the {nguv} doing there? You have two verbs in a sentence. {DaHjaj Doqqu' tlhom} We were told that a {tlhom} can be described as {chum}, so I see no reason why it can't be {Doqqu'}. Regarding nguvmoH: the direct object is the thing being colored, can I use
the color as an indirect object? Can it be used for natural processes?
That is, is this a valid construct?
Doqvad chal nguvmoH jajlo'.
No, because {-vaD} is a noun suffix and {Doq} is a verb.
Well, I suppose I could use simply:
chal DoqmoH jajlo'.
Still, it would be nice if someone could confirm the meaning of an indirect object with nguv.
I'm fairly sure it doesn't work that way, based on other examples of {-vaD} with {-moH}. I'd say "to dye something red" like so: {ret'aq DoqmoHmeH nguvmoH} {ret'aq nguvmoHmo', DoqchoH} An odd thing for me was that SuDqu' means green; I expected to be a color at
the opposite end of the spectrum, and to indicate blue.
Anyway, that made me think of how to say yellow and orange instead;
Would
Doq dochvam, 'ach tlhoS SuD
work for orange/orange yellow
or
SuD, 'ach tlhoS Doq
for yellow, maybe close to orange?
I understand those sentences, but they're descriptions, not labels.
The KGT indicates
Sud 'ej wov
for yellow, but it looks ambiguous... Could't it indicate light blue or light green as well?
It says it's a way to refer to a yellowish tinge. It's not a specific colour.
Finally... grays.
I have seen
qIj 'ej wov
to indicate gray. I suppose that works.
Can I use
chIs 'ach loQ Hurg/loQ wovbe'
for
light gray?
I don't see why now. Again, these are descriptions. It's like saying in English, "it's white but slightly dark". -- De'vID
Thank you for your answers. On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 12:00 PM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 at 10:26, Luciano Montanaro <mikelima@gmail.com> wrote:
I have been reading the KGT section about visual arts. I have some doubts, that probably many of you can clarify.
The KGT explicitly says there is no word for color as such.
But how can I ask what color is something?
Doq'a'? SuD'a'?
I suppose that could work, depending on the situation.
The nguv verb can be used, but it is not clear to me if it includes naturally occurring colors, as the definition is "is dyed, is tinted, is stained". What about the natural color of an object? Is
chay' nguv tera' naran?
still an option?
I don't know if it can be used to describe the natural colour of an object, but I'd understand that question if you asked me.
Also, consider the verbs {but} and {pargh}.
for natural or artificial? Ok... I guess, but with the limitation of one adjective per name it would be difficult to work them in.
Can I use to describe the color of something? The notes says it is rarely used, but would something like this work?
DaHjaj Doqqu' nguv tlhom!
Ah, right.
What is the {nguv} doing there? You have two verbs in a sentence.
{DaHjaj Doqqu' tlhom}
We were told that a {tlhom} can be described as {chum}, so I see no reason why it can't be {Doqqu'}.
Regarding nguvmoH: the direct object is the thing being colored, can I use the color as an indirect object? Can it be used for natural processes?
That is, is this a valid construct?
Doqvad chal nguvmoH jajlo'.
No, because {-vaD} is a noun suffix and {Doq} is a verb.
Right again, sorry.
Well, I suppose I could use simply:
chal DoqmoH jajlo'.
Still, it would be nice if someone could confirm the meaning of an indirect object with nguv.
I'm fairly sure it doesn't work that way, based on other examples of {-vaD} with {-moH}.
I'd say "to dye something red" like so: {ret'aq DoqmoHmeH nguvmoH} {ret'aq nguvmoHmo', DoqchoH}
An odd thing for me was that SuDqu' means green; I expected to be a color at the opposite end of the spectrum, and to indicate blue.
Anyway, that made me think of how to say yellow and orange instead;
Would
Doq dochvam, 'ach tlhoS SuD
work for orange/orange yellow
or
SuD, 'ach tlhoS Doq
for yellow, maybe close to orange?
I understand those sentences, but they're descriptions, not labels.
Yes, but in the end, even doqqu' 'ej wov, "red, and light" is a description. There are two problems, one is to find way to describe the color of an object, and one to give an identifier to a colored pigment. I am trying to do the former here... But I would like to see a klingon paint shop, now that I think of it!
The KGT indicates
Sud 'ej wov
for yellow, but it looks ambiguous... Could't it indicate light blue or light green as well?
It says it's a way to refer to a yellowish tinge. It's not a specific colour.
Finally... grays.
I have seen
qIj 'ej wov
to indicate gray. I suppose that works.
Can I use
chIs 'ach loQ Hurg/loQ wovbe'
for
light gray?
I don't see why now. Again, these are descriptions. It's like saying in English, "it's white but slightly dark".
Well, yes it is a description. The intention is to say that you could call it white, in a pinch, but it is really a darker shade.
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
-- Luciano Montanaro Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams
On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 10:26:30 +0100 Luciano Montanaro <mikelima@gmail.com> wrote:
... An odd thing for me was that SuDqu' means green; I expected to be a color at the opposite end of the spectrum, and to indicate blue. ...
It's easier if you can visualize the spectrum. https://75.52.166.42/tlhIngan/color.jpg (You need a browser that allows you to accept certificate errors. ie: Firefox) If you can't get the link to work, I think someone has a copy of it on one of the Klingon database type websites, but I am not at home, so I don't have all my links. In the spectrum, under each general color you have the ..'ej.., the -qu', and then the bare verb. - DloraH
Am 16.02.2019 um 14:36 schrieb DloraH:
If you can't get the link to work, I think someone has a copy of it on one of the Klingon database type websites,
You can find a similar color scale on the Klingon wiki: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Colors -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
Am 16.02.2019 um 14:36 schrieb DloraH:
If you can't get the link to work, I think someone has a copy of it on one of the Klingon database type websites, but I am not at home, so I don't have all my links.
Okay, I took that as a permission or a suggestion and uploaded your scale to the page at the Klingon wiki: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Colors If anyone likes to archive the pure image link, it's this: http://www.klingonwiki.net/pub/Main/Images/colors.png -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
Thank you all for your answers. I understand the logic now... but I have difficulty to agree with it. So my problem is that brown is seen as if it were a color on the spectrum... But I would approximate a brown by desaturating an orange, and darkening it. Or, if you want, mix red and green, and you get some kind of brown. It looks like Klingon vision has a different physiology. Evidently they have a more accurate representation of light on the red part of the spectrum. Maybe they can see infrared (that we call brown) too. On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 3:32 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 16.02.2019 um 14:36 schrieb DloraH:
If you can't get the link to work, I think someone has a copy of it on one of the Klingon database type websites, but I am not at home, so I don't have all my links.
Okay, I took that as a permission or a suggestion and uploaded your scale to the page at the Klingon wiki: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Colors
If anyone likes to archive the pure image link, it's this: http://www.klingonwiki.net/pub/Main/Images/colors.png
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
-- Luciano Montanaro Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams
On 2/16/2019 10:10 AM, Luciano Montanaro wrote:
It looks like Klingon vision has a different physiology. Evidently they have a more accurate representation of light on the red part of the spectrum. Maybe they can see infrared (that we call brown) too.
Not all languages process color terms the same way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term This is not indicative of differing physiology; it's just the way languages divide up colors. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I wonder if Klingons use a different system of specifying colours when they need more accuracy? English has a wide variety of colour-words, but many of them are approximations or descriptions or comparisons. Having a few words to describe colours doesn’t bother me as much, because I can’t think of many cases where I would need to specify an exact colour apart from a similar one and nit be able to reference a more mathematically precise colour space (pantone matching, HSL/HSB, CMYK, RGB, YCR, etc). —jevreH
Personally, I'm not a fan of the "it is this this color, however it is that one", so my personal preference is the rur approach. For example: {SuD nuH; sith lurDu' rur} the weapon is yellow; it resembles the pupils of a sith ~ mayqel *I love maltz* qunen'oS
Am 16.02.2019 um 16:40 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Personally, I'm not a fan of the "it is this this color, however it is that one", so my personal preference is the rur approach.
I agree with that and I really like the pattern of having only few words which can be combined with others and also using comparisons. Don't forget that in most or many languages, the words for colors are also just comparisons, which have been shortened. The most obvious is orange (based on the fruit), rose (flower) and many others like copper, desert, camel, sky blue, turquoise, and so on and so on. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Colors
lieven:
Don't forget that in most or many languages, the words for > colors are also just comparisons, which have been shortened. The most obvious is orange (based on the fruit), rose (flower) and many others like copper, desert, camel, sky blue, turquoise,
You're right. And something similar (that is describing things by comparing to other things) can take place with other things as well, for example flavors. For example, even if one says "it is sweet", then the question could arise, "what kind of sweet" ? And the answer could be any of the following: {Su'ghar chIS rur} it resembles white sugar {Su'ghar qIj rur} it resembles black sugar {banan rur} it resembles banana {honey rur} it resembles honey Of course, as far as we know, klingons don't know honey. But that's their problem, and it shouldn't become ours. ~ mayqel *I love maltz* qunen'oS
Keep in mind there is additive (light) and subtractive (surfaces) color mixing. They have different primaries, and different color mixing results. And of course, color perception depends on the visual system of Klingons, or whomever it is, and color cannot be accurately described except by reference to a colored object. Tim Stoffel -- -----Original Message----- From: Luciano Montanaro <mikelima@gmail.com> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] About colors Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 16:10:24 +0100 Thank you all for your answers. I understand the logic now... but I have difficulty to agree with it. So my problem is that brown is seen as if it were a color on the spectrum... But I would approximate a brown by desaturating an orange, and darkening it. Or, if you want, mix red and green, and you get some kind of brown. It looks like Klingon vision has a different physiology. Evidently they have a more accurate representation of light on the red part of the spectrum. Maybe they can see infrared (that we call brown) too. On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 3:32 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 16.02.2019 um 14:36 schrieb DloraH:
If you can't get the link to work, I think someone has a copy of it on one of the Klingon database type websites, but I am not at home, so I don't have all my links.
Okay, I took that as a permission or a suggestion and uploaded your scale to the page at the Klingon wiki: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Colors
If anyone likes to archive the pure image link, it's this: http://www.klingonwiki.net/pub/Main/Images/colors.png
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I listened to an NPR Radio Lab about color and historical writing, and apparently languages don’t tend to get words for color until someone comes up with a dye or paint to make things that color artificially. Most ancient human writings lack any mention of blue, since blue dyes and paints were very late developments. The sky was referred to as white and the sea as the color of wine (which was not blue in those days). So, look at a Klingon ship. Green with red highlights. I rest my case. Sent from my iPhone. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan
On Feb 16, 2019, at 4:06 PM, Tim Stoffel <tim@lionlamb.us> wrote:
Keep in mind there is additive (light) and subtractive (surfaces) color mixing. They have different primaries, and different color mixing results. And of course, color perception depends on the visual system of Klingons, or whomever it is, and color cannot be accurately described except by reference to a colored object.
Tim Stoffel
--
-----Original Message----- From: Luciano Montanaro <mikelima@gmail.com> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] About colors Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 16:10:24 +0100
Thank you all for your answers. I understand the logic now... but I have difficulty to agree with it.
So my problem is that brown is seen as if it were a color on the spectrum... But I would approximate a brown by desaturating an orange, and darkening it.
Or, if you want, mix red and green, and you get some kind of brown.
It looks like Klingon vision has a different physiology. Evidently they have a more accurate representation of light on the red part of the spectrum. Maybe they can see infrared (that we call brown) too.
On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 3:32 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 16.02.2019 um 14:36 schrieb DloraH: If you can't get the link to work, I think someone has a copy of it on one of the Klingon database type websites, but I am not at home, so I don't have all my links.
Okay, I took that as a permission or a suggestion and uploaded your scale to the page at the Klingon wiki: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Colors
If anyone likes to archive the pure image link, it's this: http://www.klingonwiki.net/pub/Main/Images/colors.png
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
It's easier if you can visualize the spectrum. https://75.52.166.42/tlhIngan/color.jpg
You can find it at http://klingonska.org/ref/color.html along with a number of canonical color descriptions (a few years out of date, unfortunately).
for yellow, but it looks ambiguous... Could't it indicate light blue or light green as well?
It has been used to describe light blue, in the Talk Now! Learn Klingon software by EuroTalk: http://klingonska.org/canon/2011-09-30-tnk.txt I'd probably lean towards the "yellowish tinge" interpretation most of the time, because that descriptions seems more thought-through, and thus probably more reflective of MO's intentions. That being said, human color words can be both vague and overlapping, as well; I've sat many times with color charts for purple, violet, purpure, and magenta, trying to figure out which one is best to describe the shade I'm thinking of. English has a fairly rich assortment of color words, giving it a higher "resolution", in some sense. Other languages have fewer; Ova-Himba, for example, has four, much like the Klingon SuD, Doq, qIj and chIS. http://theconversation.com/languages-dont-all-have-the-same-number-of-terms-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term#Cultural_differences That being said, in most languages you can clarify things through comparisons (indeed, many color terms are just compounds of a more basic color term and whatever you're comparing it to). This includes Klingon: Doq; beqpuj rur. = "It's Doq like beqpuj." ~ "It's orange." Doqbogh rItlh 'ej beqpuj rurbogh = "a dye that's Doq and resembles beqpuj" ~ "an orange dye" Doq; nIb beqpuj. = "It's Doq exactly like beqpuj." ~ "It's bekpuj-orange." I've been thinking it might be interesting for this year's wishlist to ask for useful, culturally relevant exemplars of different colors. Not specific ones, like "What's the word for (green) emeralds?", but more like ... "What might a Klingon use to describe something that is emerald green?". //loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of DloraH <seruq@bellsouth.net> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 14:36 To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Cc: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] About colors On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 10:26:30 +0100 Luciano Montanaro <mikelima@gmail.com> wrote:
... An odd thing for me was that SuDqu' means green; I expected to be a color at the opposite end of the spectrum, and to indicate blue. ...
It's easier if you can visualize the spectrum. https://75.52.166.42/tlhIngan/color.jpg (You need a browser that allows you to accept certificate errors. ie: Firefox) If you can't get the link to work, I think someone has a copy of it on one of the Klingon database type websites, but I am not at home, so I don't have all my links. In the spectrum, under each general color you have the ..'ej.., the -qu', and then the bare verb. - DloraH _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (10)
-
De'vID -
DloraH -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Jeffrey Clark -
Lieven L. Litaer -
Luciano Montanaro -
mayqel qunenoS -
SuStel -
Tim Stoffel -
Will Martin