On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 13:11, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
Feel free to ignore that list. It says “Klingonists agree,” but I don’t remember any kind of referendum.
It says "Klingonists have agreed that using commas is a very useful thing to make phrases clear." While this statement is not sufficiently supported by evidence on the page itself, are you saying it's untrue? Does anyone disagree that using commas is useful for making phrases clear? This is followed by "Over time, Klingonists have generally settled on these practices on the mailing list and other online places, not as a matter of policy, but as a convention." The practices listed seem to me to generally be what is usually followed, here on this mailing list and also elsewhere when Klingon is written in Latin script as plain-text ASCII. I say "generally" because there's some variation, e.g., I use <single angle brackets> instead of the <<double angle brackets>> listed on that page. Nobody is obliged to follow common practice, but the reason it exists is because it's what most people do.
Just use whatever punctuation you think best expresses what you want and will be best understood and accepted by your audience.
Which will probably end up being very similar to what's listed on that page. There's a reason that people avoid single and double quotation characters when writing Klingon (in Latin), it's because they're easily confused for {qaghwI'}. There's also a reason why asterisks are used for English words: it's because Okrand uses italics for this purpose, and historically italics have been indicted by asterisks in ASCII-only mailing lists. So if you try to develop your own conventions and still want to be understood, you'll very likely end up re-inventing the same conventions used by everyone else. -- De'vID
On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, De'vID wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 13:11, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
Feel free to ignore that list. It says “Klingonists agree,” but I don’t remember any kind of referendum.
It says "Klingonists have agreed that using commas is a very useful thing to make phrases clear." While this statement is not sufficiently supported by evidence on the page itself, are you saying it's untrue? Does anyone disagree that using commas is useful for making phrases clear?
I'm saying that Lieven's intuitive feeling about what Klingonists agree on should not be taken as a mandate. mayqel cited that page as if it is authoritative, or at least asking why he should do what it advises.
This is followed by "Over time, Klingonists have generally settled on these practices on the mailing list and other online places, not as a matter of policy, but as a convention." The practices listed seem to me to generally be what is usually followed, here on this mailing list and also elsewhere when Klingon is written in Latin script as plain-text ASCII. I say "generally" because there's some variation, e.g., I use <single angle brackets> instead of the <<double angle brackets>> listed on that page.
Nobody is obliged to follow common practice, but the reason it exists is because it's what most people do.
Which is still not a mandate, but it IS covered by my citing of what "will be best understood and accepted by your audience." mayqel has left the list before, because of an argument over punctuation. I'm telling him that there are no commandments regarding it, and if he's going to pay attention to that page, he has to pay close attention to the "but as a convention" part.
Just use whatever punctuation you think best expresses what you want and will be best understood and accepted by your audience.
Which will probably end up being very similar to what's listed on that page.
Then why are you arguing with me? This was where I was leading him, without telling him he has to just do what everyone else says. Once again, I understand what mayqel is getting at with his posts on this. He has his own ideas about punctuation and he wants to use it to be expressive, but he also feels the pressure of conformity. He wants to know just how much he has to do what he sees on that page, and why he has to listen to anybody. I'm trying to get him started, not smack him with the end result. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 21.05.2019 um 18:28 schrieb SuStel:
I'm saying that Lieven's intuitive feeling about what Klingonists agree on should not be taken as a mandate. mayqel cited that page as if it is authoritative, or at least asking why he should do what it advises.
Just for the record: I did not make that up myself based on my "intuitive feeling" (and besides, everyone can work on the Wiki). The main contents of that page - especially the section "Klingonists convention" - is copied one-to-one from the mailings lists FAQ, written somewhere in the first years of the list, so between 1993 and 1997. So even if that FAQ is still just a recommendation, it has some kind of mandate for at least this mailing list, as it answers typical beginenrs questions, avoiding lenghthy discussions about the possibilities and just providing a simple solution.
Which is still not a mandate,
Besides, Marc Okrand uses {tlhIngan} "translation" when writing Klingon texts, so at least that part is even canon. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de www.klingonwiki.net/En/Punctuation
On 5/21/2019 12:42 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 21.05.2019 um 18:28 schrieb SuStel:
I'm saying that Lieven's intuitive feeling about what Klingonists agree on should not be taken as a mandate. mayqel cited that page as if it is authoritative, or at least asking why he should do what it advises.
Just for the record: I did not make that up myself based on my "intuitive feeling" (and besides, everyone can work on the Wiki). The main contents of that page - especially the section "Klingonists convention" - is copied one-to-one from the mailings lists FAQ, written somewhere in the first years of the list, so between 1993 and 1997.
I stand corrected. Someone else wrote about their intuitive feeling, and you copied it.
So even if that FAQ is still just a recommendation, it has some kind of mandate for at least this mailing list, as it answers typical beginenrs questions, avoiding lenghthy discussions about the possibilities and just providing a simple solution.
The FAQ copied onto your wiki simply says we can use punctuation. It then links to another page that was not part of the FAQ. And given that anyone can edit your wiki, it can't possibly be considered authoritative for this list. And if it is, I'm going to start editing it with some truly ridiculous ideas, just to mess with everyone, and they'll have to be considered the rules of the list.
Which is still not a mandate,
Besides, Marc Okrand uses {tlhIngan} "translation" when writing Klingon texts, so at least that part is even canon.
Whether Okrand has used punctuation is irrelevant. We were using punctuation in Klingon sentences long before Okrand ever did. This is not an argument about canon. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 5/21/2019 12:42 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 21.05.2019 um 18:28 schrieb SuStel:
I'm saying that Lieven's intuitive feeling about what Klingonists agree on should not be taken as a mandate. mayqel cited that page as if it is authoritative, or at least asking why he should do what it advises.
Am 21.05.2019 um 18:58 schrieb SuStel:
I stand corrected. Someone else wrote about their intuitive feeling, and you copied it.
"intuitive feeling" is a word I copied from your message. See above.
The FAQ copied onto your wiki simply says we can use punctuation. It then links to another page that was not part of the FAQ.
Yes, true. It links to a page that was /taken from/ the FAQ and then moved to the other page for better readability. I will add that quote to make you understand that better.
And given that anyone can edit your wiki, it can't possibly be considered authoritative for this list. And if it is, I'm going to start
editing it with some truly ridiculous ideas, just to mess with everyone,
and they'll have to be considered the rules of the list.
That's like saying one should not read Wikipedia because everyone can edit it. You really enjoy twisting my words in my mouth. The intention of an open source encyclopedia is that experienced people can work on it and make corrections and additions where necessary. Just like in Wikipedia, if any nonsense is added, there will be enough other people to correct it.
Whether Okrand has used punctuation is irrelevant. We were using punctuation in Klingon sentences long before Okrand ever did. This is not an argument about canon.
WUT? We were using the word {pemHov} long before Okrand suggested {jul}. We were using word incorrectly before Okrand clairifed them. How can Okrand's punctuation be irrelevant? Are you drunk? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de www.klingonwiki.net/En/Punctuation
On 5/21/2019 1:54 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
On 5/21/2019 12:42 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 21.05.2019 um 18:28 schrieb SuStel:
I'm saying that Lieven's intuitive feeling about what Klingonists agree on should not be taken as a mandate. mayqel cited that page as if it is authoritative, or at least asking why he should do what it advises.
Am 21.05.2019 um 18:58 schrieb SuStel:
I stand corrected. Someone else wrote about their intuitive feeling, and you copied it.
"intuitive feeling" is a word I copied from your message. See above.
I know I used that term. I meant it. Whoever wrote that message about Klingonists agreeing didn't perform any kind of survey or study that I'm aware of; they just kinda figured that enough Klingonists used punctuation that they could say Klingonists "agree" on it. And I'm not disputing that. I'm saying I don't know of any official count of who agrees with this or what kind of official weight that count would actually have. Do you know of any such survey?
The FAQ copied onto your wiki simply says we can use punctuation. It then links to another page that was not part of the FAQ.
Yes, true. It links to a page that was /taken from/ the FAQ and then moved to the other page for better readability. I will add that quote to make you understand that better.
And then edited by who knows how many people, potentially. You cannot use as your policy document a web page that anyone can edit, because then anyone can edit your policy. The wiki page cannot compel anyone with the force of list policy.
And given that anyone can edit your wiki, it can't possibly be considered authoritative for this list. And if it is, I'm going to start
editing it with some truly ridiculous ideas, just to mess with everyone,
and they'll have to be considered the rules of the list.
That's like saying one should not read Wikipedia because everyone can edit it. You really enjoy twisting my words in my mouth.
First of all, I wasn't originally talking to you; you butted in when you read your name. Calibrate your words before offering them. Second, reading Wikipedia is not the same as believing a wiki page is the basis of some kind of policy or convention outlining how you have to use language. I'm perfectly free to ignore anything I might read on Wikipedia, but if someone declares the wiki page as official policy for this list, I have to modify my behavior according to that policy. Third, Wikilobbying: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/6p6df7/the-colbert-report-the-word---wikilobby...
The intention of an open source encyclopedia is that experienced people can work on it and make corrections and additions where necessary. Just like in Wikipedia, if any nonsense is added, there will be enough other people to correct it.
I am familiar with the principle.
Whether Okrand has used punctuation is irrelevant. We were using punctuation in Klingon sentences long before Okrand ever did. This is not an argument about canon.
WUT? We were using the word {pemHov} long before Okrand suggested {jul}. We were using word incorrectly before Okrand clairifed them. How can Okrand's punctuation be irrelevant? Are you drunk?
I don't drink. Klingons speak Klingon words. Klingons don't use English punctuation. Whether and how you choose to employ English punctuation in your Klingon sentences is your own business, not Okrand's. In TKD section 6.2.2 Okrand translates *DIHIvpu'*//as /we attacked them,/ not /We attacked them./ His use of a lowercase letter is not significant. There is nothing more canonically correct about writing the translation of *DIHIvpu'*//with a lowercase /w/ than with a capital /W./ In section 5.5 he translates *majQa'* as /Very good. Well done. /and *toH* /Well! So!/ There is nothing significant in his choice to use periods for *majqa'* and exclamation points for *toH.* You can use periods or exclamation points as you like. It's irrelevant what appears in the canon. Okrand DOES use punctuation for Klingon in one place in TKD: the verso of the title page, in which there are em dashes before each Klingon phrase. This does not mean that Klingons place any importance on em dashes under any specific circumstance — it's likely that Okrand didn't even choose anything about the layout of this page. What punctuation Okrand has used in canon has exactly zero applicability to how we use punctuation for Klingon. Punctuate it however you like has been his message since then. mayqel's concern is that he's supposed to be following some kind of established rules of punctuation, and I'm telling him that while there are indeed punctuation conventions that people are comfortable with, these are not mandated by Okrand. It is not clear to me whether this list mandates any punctuation beyond marking foreign terms that have been transliterated, but if it does that mandate shouldn't be kept on an editable wiki page. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
lieven:
For direction quotes, I would say you can use whatever you like, as long as one can read it and understand it: jatlh mayqel: >targh vImuSbe'.<
ooh, I like this so much more than the double angled brackets, which I find ugly.. So, unless someone has any objections, I will be using: {jatlh mayqel > vIghro'mey vImuSHa' <} instead of {jatlh mayqel << vIghro'mey vImuSHa' >>} But of course, if anyone objects, then please *do* tell me. Although, I don't think it will make a difference, since the sword is already well on its way to the ocean.. ~ m. qunen'oS
Am 21.05.2019 um 21:36 schrieb SuStel:
I know I used that term. I meant it. Whoever wrote that message about Klingonists agreeing didn't perform any kind of survey or study that I'm aware of; they just kinda figured that enough Klingonists used punctuation that they could say Klingonists "agree" on it.
It was Holtej, obviously, who wrote that into the FAQ, but I have no idea on what that is based on.
And I'm not disputing that. I'm saying I don't know of any official [...] Do you know of any such survey?
Even if there were a survey, it still wouldn't mean anything. I made a survey proving that 90% prefer "Klingon" over "Klingonese", but that will not stop anyone from using the word "Klingonese".
First of all, I wasn't originally talking to you; you butted in when you read your name. Calibrate your words before offering them.
Well, still I somehow felt offended somehow, or at least, saying more neutral, I felt addressed. Each time you refer to the Klingonwiki you name it "Lieven's wiki", as if it were just a worthless toy that I just made up. Of course I was the one who set it up, but I still wish it to be "our" wiki, not "mine".
Third, Wikilobbying: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/6p6df7/the-colbert-report-the-word---wikilobby...
I cannot access that video from my place, but the subtitle of it makes clear what it's about.
Klingons speak Klingon words. Klingons don't use English punctuation.
Klingons also don't use English letters.
Okrand DOES use punctuation for Klingon in one place in TKD:
Just for the record: Okrand uses Punctuation in KGT, TKW, Monopoly, and when using long sentences in his messages.
list mandates any punctuation beyond marking foreign terms that have been transliterated, but if it does that mandate shouldn't be kept on an editable wiki page.
Tell the list owner. PS: Would it change anything to you if I lock that page? -- Lieven L. Litaer http://www.klingonwiki.net/AboutEn/Why
I’m often impressed at how good we are as a group at arguing about things and insulting each other unnecessarily. I know that sometimes, the insults are unintentional, stemming from the poor capacity of typed text for carrying the emotional subtleties of spoken language, and this is exacerbated by our majority male population. As men, we have to deal with the emotional side effects of our natural addiction to testosterone, a substance toxic at excessive levels. I, for one, didn’t ask to be bald (though I don’t mind the beard so much). I also didn’t ask to be as angry as I get sometimes, and I certainly did not intend to get in as many arguments on this list as I have. It’s like I have a personality, and then there’s a layer of testosterone poured over it, like syrup. If poured on too thick, you can’t taste anything but the testosterone. I’m reminded of the movie scene where Thor and The Hulk have just successfully finished a battle together, and The Hulk casually blind-sides Thor with a punch that knocks him out of view of the camera. Unexpected and funny? Yes. Probably very painful for Thor, who didn’t deserve it, given how hard he just worked to do his part in battle. But hey, we’re guys, right? This is how we treat each other. Even that is exacerbated by the warrior culture of the fictional Klingon race, which we empathize with as we learn and use their language. Even this is exacerbated by the classical vs. romantic rift of our political decision-making here. Classical: Let’s restrict everything to being exactly what we know to be right. Romantic: Let’s move in new directions and develop a wider scope of possibilities. Art movements and politics everywhere have this struggle. So, within the context of so much natural conflict, let’s keep in mind exactly what we are arguing about here: 1. A fictional race of aliens 2. Their spoken language — we don’t really know their written language 3. A human’s phonetic representation of their spoken language. 4. Punctuation use in the phonetic representation of the language spoken by a fictional race of aliens. 5. A publicly accessible guideline as to commonly used punctuation within the human phonetic representation of the spoken language of a fictional race of non-humans. I don’t read the wiki as laying out the law in classical terms of restricting romantic people from using punctuation different from the rules. Instead, I see guidelines for newcomers who want to know how they can write using punctuation in the phonetic representation of the spoken language of a fictional race of aliens in a way that assists others in being able to understand what they’ve written. You don’t have to follow the guidelines, but if you boldly go in some other direction, you might not be understood, and if you want the KLI to publish whatever it is that you’ve written in Klingon for some KLI project, you may face editorial review by an editor who would prefer that your work appear more consistent with the existing works of others, which has tended to follow the guidelines laid out in the wiki. We don’t really need to fight about this. Use the guidelines, or ignore them, but don’t insult someone for their many hours of honest service to the community to try to provide us with reasonable guidelines for the use of punctuation in our human representation of the spoken language of this fictional, non-human race. That’s just punching Thor out of the picture. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On May 22, 2019, at 5:20 AM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 21.05.2019 um 21:36 schrieb SuStel:
I know I used that term. I meant it. Whoever wrote that message about Klingonists agreeing didn't perform any kind of survey or study that I'm aware of; they just kinda figured that enough Klingonists used punctuation that they could say Klingonists "agree" on it.
It was Holtej, obviously, who wrote that into the FAQ, but I have no idea on what that is based on.
And I'm not disputing that. I'm saying I don't know of any official [...] Do you know of any such survey?
Even if there were a survey, it still wouldn't mean anything. I made a survey proving that 90% prefer "Klingon" over "Klingonese", but that will not stop anyone from using the word "Klingonese".
First of all, I wasn't originally talking to you; you butted in when you read your name. Calibrate your words before offering them.
Well, still I somehow felt offended somehow, or at least, saying more neutral, I felt addressed. Each time you refer to the Klingonwiki you name it "Lieven's wiki", as if it were just a worthless toy that I just made up. Of course I was the one who set it up, but I still wish it to be "our" wiki, not "mine".
Third, Wikilobbying: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/6p6df7/the-colbert-report-the-word---wikilobby...
I cannot access that video from my place, but the subtitle of it makes clear what it's about.
Klingons speak Klingon words. Klingons don't use English punctuation.
Klingons also don't use English letters.
Okrand DOES use punctuation for Klingon in one place in TKD:
Just for the record: Okrand uses Punctuation in KGT, TKW, Monopoly, and when using long sentences in his messages.
list mandates any punctuation beyond marking foreign terms that have been transliterated, but if it does that mandate shouldn't be kept on an editable wiki page.
Tell the list owner.
PS: Would it change anything to you if I lock that page?
-- Lieven L. Litaer http://www.klingonwiki.net/AboutEn/Why _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 21.05.2019 um 18:28 schrieb SuStel:
mayqel cited that page as if it is authoritative, or at least asking why he should do what it advises.
It seems like mayqel will need to find a different name if he like to quote his "whispering little bird" he should not mention ;-) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/BoQwI
participants (5)
-
De'vID -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel -
Will Martin