On 5/21/2019 12:42 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:

Am 21.05.2019 um 18:28 schrieb SuStel:

I'm saying that Lieven's intuitive feeling about what Klingonists agree
on should not be taken as a mandate. mayqel cited that page as if it is
authoritative, or at least asking why he should do what it advises.

Am 21.05.2019 um 18:58 schrieb SuStel:

I stand corrected. Someone else wrote about their intuitive feeling, and
you copied it.

"intuitive feeling" is a word I copied from your message. See above.

I know I used that term. I meant it. Whoever wrote that message about Klingonists agreeing didn't perform any kind of survey or study that I'm aware of; they just kinda figured that enough Klingonists used punctuation that they could say Klingonists "agree" on it.

And I'm not disputing that. I'm saying I don't know of any official count of who agrees with this or what kind of official weight that count would actually have.

Do you know of any such survey?

The FAQ copied onto your wiki simply says we can use punctuation. It
then links to another page that was not part of the FAQ.

Yes, true. It links to a page that was /taken from/ the FAQ and then
moved to the other page for better readability. I will add that quote to
make you understand that better.

And then edited by who knows how many people, potentially. You cannot use as your policy document a web page that anyone can edit, because then anyone can edit your policy. The wiki page cannot compel anyone with the force of list policy.

And given that anyone can edit your wiki, it can't possibly be
considered authoritative for this list. And if it is, I'm going to start

editing it with some truly ridiculous ideas, just to mess with everyone,

and they'll have to be considered the rules of the list.

That's like saying one should not read Wikipedia because everyone can
edit it. You really enjoy twisting my words in my mouth.

First of all, I wasn't originally talking to you; you butted in when you read your name. Calibrate your words before offering them.

Second, reading Wikipedia is not the same as believing a wiki page is the basis of some kind of policy or convention outlining how you have to use language. I'm perfectly free to ignore anything I might read on Wikipedia, but if someone declares the wiki page as official policy for this list, I have to modify my behavior according to that policy.

Third, Wikilobbying: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/6p6df7/the-colbert-report-the-word---wikilobbying

The intention of an open source encyclopedia is that experienced people
can work on it and make corrections and additions where necessary. Just
like in Wikipedia, if any nonsense is added, there will be enough other
people to correct it.

I am familiar with the principle.

Whether Okrand has used punctuation is irrelevant. We were using
punctuation in Klingon sentences long before Okrand ever did. This is
not an argument about canon.

WUT? We were using the word {pemHov} long before Okrand suggested {jul}.
We were using word incorrectly before Okrand clairifed them. How can
Okrand's punctuation be irrelevant? Are you drunk?

I don't drink.

Klingons speak Klingon words. Klingons don't use English punctuation. Whether and how you choose to employ English punctuation in your Klingon sentences is your own business, not Okrand's.

In TKD section 6.2.2 Okrand translates DIHIvpu' as we attacked them, not We attacked them. His use of a lowercase letter is not significant. There is nothing more canonically correct about writing the translation of DIHIvpu' with a lowercase w than with a capital W.

In section 5.5 he translates majQa' as Very good. Well done. and toH Well! So! There is nothing significant in his choice to use periods for majqa' and exclamation points for toH. You can use periods or exclamation points as you like. It's irrelevant what appears in the canon.

Okrand DOES use punctuation for Klingon in one place in TKD: the verso of the title page, in which there are em dashes before each Klingon phrase. This does not mean that Klingons place any importance on em dashes under any specific circumstance — it's likely that Okrand didn't even choose anything about the layout of this page.

What punctuation Okrand has used in canon has exactly zero applicability to how we use punctuation for Klingon. Punctuate it however you like has been his message since then.

mayqel's concern is that he's supposed to be following some kind of established rules of punctuation, and I'm telling him that while there are indeed punctuation conventions that people are comfortable with, these are not mandated by Okrand. It is not clear to me whether this list mandates any punctuation beyond marking foreign terms that have been transliterated, but if it does that mandate shouldn't be kept on an editable wiki page.

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name