At the new words list of kli.org, at the entry of {qalmuS} for "color", there is a capital N, as is found next to names of cities, countries. Is it just a typo, or am I missing something ? ~ ckckcc
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:58, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
At the new words list of kli.org, at the entry of {qalmuS} for "color", there is a capital N, as is found next to names of cities, countries.
Is it just a typo, or am I missing something ?
It's a typo. But also, we're missing something. -- De'vID
On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 10:48 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
But also, we're missing something
About what ?
I think De'vID is referring to the fact that KGT claims Klingon has no noun for "color", and yet we've got one. It's an issue he's mentioned before. My hypothesis: In the years since KGT was published, appreciation for Klingon art has increased among off-worlders, who wish to discuss art with the Klingon artists. However, Klingon artists have found that a lot of off-worlders, especially artists, use a noun for "color". To facilitate communication about the arts, Klingon artists have started using a noun for "color": *qalmuS*. Maybe it was an archaic word that was brought back into use, like the verb *tlhogh*. Or maybe it was originally an esoteric scientific word having to do with photon energies or something. Maybe it's a borrowing from another language. Only Maltz knows for sure.
Rather like Monsieur Jourdain in Moliere’s comedy “Le Bourgeois gentilhomme”, who learns to his amazement that he has been speaking prose all his life without knowing it: Par ma foi! il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose sans que j'en susse rien, et je vous suis le plus obligé du monde de m'avoir appris cela. [Act II, scene 4] -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons From: nIqolay Q I think De'vID is referring to the fact that KGT claims Klingon has no noun for "color", and yet we've got one. It's an issue he's mentioned before. My hypothesis: In the years since KGT was published, appreciation for Klingon art has increased among off-worlders, who wish to discuss art with the Klingon artists. However, Klingon artists have found that a lot of off-worlders, especially artists, use a noun for "color". To facilitate communication about the arts, Klingon artists have started using a noun for "color": qalmuS. Maybe it was an archaic word that was brought back into use, like the verb tlhogh. Or maybe it was originally an esoteric scientific word having to do with photon energies or something. Maybe it's a borrowing from another language. Only Maltz knows for sure.
nIqolay Q:
However, Klingon artists have found that a lot of off-worlders, especially artists, use a noun for "color". To facilitate communication about the arts, Klingon artists have started using a noun for "color": qalmuS. Maybe it was an archaic word that was brought back into use, like the verb tlhogh. Or maybe it was originally an esoteric scientific word having to do with photon energies or something.
ok, I'll play along ! maj. jIQuj je ! ..or in some parallel universe, klingons *do* have a word for color. chaq, 'u' quqDaq color mu' lughajqu' tlhInganpu' ..or maltz was waiting for mankind to mature to disclose this word, because it has some higher esoteric meaning too. chaq, mu'vam 'otHa'pu'pa' matlh, nenchoHpu' Human mut neH matlh, lalDan DI'onmey pegh ghajmo' je {qalmuS} mu'. ..or maltz ate some strange alien (i.e. terran) food, which made him confused and attributed to the word {qalmus} the meaning of "color", which was meant to describe something else. chaq, novpu' (tera'nganpu') Soj Huj Soppu' matlh, vaj mISchoHpu', 'ej mu'vamvaD color jIyweS Delpu'; 'a DIvI' Hol mu' pImvaD {qalmoH} mu' lo' 'e' Hech matlh. ~ qqqqq
Or "Federation linguist" Marc Okrand was just wrong, thinking that Klingon uses the quality {chum} "be colorful" -- preferring a verb where "Federation Standard" uses a noun as it does so often. Voragh -----Original Message----- From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> On Behalf Of mayqel qunen'oS nIqolay Q:
However, Klingon artists have found that a lot of off-worlders, especially artists, use a noun for "color". To facilitate communication about the arts, Klingon artists have started using a noun for "color": qalmuS. Maybe it was an archaic word that was brought back into use, like the verb tlhogh. Or maybe it was originally an esoteric scientific word having to do with photon energies or something.
..or in some parallel universe, klingons *do* have a word for color. chaq, 'u' quqDaq color mu' lughajqu' tlhInganpu' ..or maltz was waiting for mankind to mature to disclose this word, because it has some higher esoteric meaning too. chaq, mu'vam 'otHa'pu'pa' matlh, nenchoHpu' Human mut neH matlh, lalDan DI'onmey pegh ghajmo' je {qalmuS} mu'. ..or maltz ate some strange alien (i.e. terran) food, which made him confused and attributed to the word {qalmus} the meaning of "color", which was meant to describe something else. chaq, novpu' (tera'nganpu') Soj Huj Soppu' matlh, vaj mISchoHpu', 'ej mu'vamvaD color jIyweS Delpu'; 'a DIvI' Hol mu' pImvaD {qalmoH} mu' lo' 'e' Hech matlh.
Am 30.08.2019 um 18:20 schrieb nIqolay Q:
I think De'vID is referring to the fact that KGT claims Klingon has no noun for "color", and yet we've got one. It's an issue he's mentioned before.
My hypothesis: [...] Only Maltz knows for sure.
I've had a chance to talk to Marc Okrand recently and he explained it to me. These are my own words describing the situation. He agreed that his wording was bit confusing. KGT is correct saying that there is no noun for color in the sense of "What color is that?" or "Red is a nice color." The new word {qalmuS} is used to distinguish the colorfulness of pictures, for instance. He pointed at a color photograph and said "That one has color" and then at a black'n'white photo and said "that one has not." For future reference, I've added this explanation to a new section of the Klingon Language Wiki. It's still in Beta version, so don't bother about strange formatting or the like: http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/KalmuS -- Lieven.
I'm very disappointed at this explanation, and I think I'm going to be conveniently forgetting this info on {qalmuS}. mubelHa'moH De'vam chu', 'ej reH De'vam vIlIjlaw'taH. ~ ccccc
Am 30.08.2019 um 20:34 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
I'm very disappointed at this explanation, and I think I'm going to be conveniently forgetting this info on {qalmuS}.
That may result you in using it incorrectly.
mubelHa'moH De'vam chu', 'ej reH De'vam vIlIjlaw'taH.
De'vetlh DalIj 'e' DawIvchugh vaj ghaytan mu'vetlh Dalo'Ha'choH. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net
So, I meet a friend of mine who says: "michael, I met a woman who has the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen". And me, wanting to ask "seriously ? what color are they ?", I don't have a way to ask because "klingons don't have a word for color". Or I can say something like "how are they dyed/stained/tinted" ? But the jay' problem is, that I'm not asking if she wears make-up.. Now.. I can understand certain rules, which could be argued that they give character to the language. No {-Daq} on non-physical objects/locations, no type-7 after the {'e'} in a sao, no {-lu'} and {-laH} together. And I can swallow these rules, because there are ways to work around them. But it pisses me off, when: A constructed language has achieved the incredibly difficult, which is "being able to understand each other while talking about almost everything", but at the same time tying our hands on things which should be straightforward and simple. It's *exactly* like having a million dollar ferrari, which goes 0-100 km in under 3'', is perfect in every way, but it doesn't have a reverse. And when you complain about it, someone says "What's the problem ? Use a helicopter to pick it up, and put it into the parking spot". I don't know what would be more irritating.. The lack of the reverse gear, the helicopter argument, or someone expecting you to actually believe it. ~ cbcbbcbbb
qalmuS ghajqu’a’ be’vam mInDu’? yIDel! It might explain the Shakespeare sonnet going to such great lengths to compare the color of her eyes to descriptions of other eyes by other poets. This rule isn’t that difficult to work around. Just think of the word color as something referring to quantity instead of quality. It’s the richness of the hue without specification of which zone of the spectrum. You describe or compare to deal with spectrum. Sent from my iPhone. Will
On Aug 31, 2019, at 6:51 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
So, I meet a friend of mine who says: "michael, I met a woman who has the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen".
And me, wanting to ask "seriously ? what color are they ?", I don't have a way to ask because "klingons don't have a word for color".
Or I can say something like "how are they dyed/stained/tinted" ?
But the jay' problem is, that I'm not asking if she wears make-up..
Now..
I can understand certain rules, which could be argued that they give character to the language. No {-Daq} on non-physical objects/locations, no type-7 after the {'e'} in a sao, no {-lu'} and {-laH} together.
And I can swallow these rules, because there are ways to work around them.
But it pisses me off, when:
A constructed language has achieved the incredibly difficult, which is "being able to understand each other while talking about almost everything", but at the same time tying our hands on things which should be straightforward and simple.
It's *exactly* like having a million dollar ferrari, which goes 0-100 km in under 3'', is perfect in every way, but it doesn't have a reverse.
And when you complain about it, someone says "What's the problem ? Use a helicopter to pick it up, and put it into the parking spot".
I don't know what would be more irritating.. The lack of the reverse gear, the helicopter argument, or someone expecting you to actually believe it.
~ cbcbbcbbb _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 6:51 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
So, I meet a friend of mine who says: "michael, I met a woman who has the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen".
And me, wanting to ask "seriously ? what color are they ?", I don't have a way to ask because "klingons don't have a word for color".
Or I can say something like "how are they dyed/stained/tinted" ?
But the jay' problem is, that I'm not asking if she wears make-up..
*nguvwI'mey pargh neH DellaH mu' <nguv> qatlh 'e' DaQub? nguvwI'mey but DellaH DIvI' Hol jIyweS <be tinted>. * *mIt mu'tlhegh <chay' nguv mInDu'Daj?>.*
(KGT 81f.): Compared to Federation Standard, Klingon terminology associated with colors is rather limited. ... There is, however, a verb, {nguv}, which means something like be "dyed, stained, tinted", though it is seldom used except in the phrase {chay' nguv} ("How is [it] tinted?") or ... in the form {nguvmoH} ("dye, tint, stain"; that is, "cause to be dyed," etc.) -- for example, {ret'aq nguvmoH} ("He/she stains the knife handle"). I understood "seldom used except in the phrase {chay' nguv}" as meaning this is the idiomatic way Klingons ask about specific colors -- so *{chay' nguv be'vam mInDu'?} would be perfectly acceptable. While "be dyed, stained, tinted" might imply artificial, modified or added color in English, perhaps it doesn't in Klingon. But if you don't like {nguv}, try {chum} "be colorful" instead: *{chay' chum?} "How is it colorful? In what way is it colorful?" So far, the only things we know for certain are {chum} are sunrise {jajlo’ chum} ("colorful dawn") and sunset {tlhom chum} ("colorful dusk"). (OTOH {chum} "be colorful" may just be the opposite of {Dem} "be clear, transparent, uncolored".) Voragh ----------------------------------------Original Message--------------------------------------------- From: mayqel qunen'oS So, I meet a friend of mine who says: "michael, I met a woman who has the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen". And me, wanting to ask "seriously ? what color are they ?", I don't have a way to ask because "klingons don't have a word for color". Or I can say something like "how are they dyed/stained/tinted" ? But the jay' problem is, that I'm not asking if she wears make-up..
It occurs to me that, given an NPR program earlier in the year, perhaps Okrand was listening. It said that languages do not tend to get color words until the people who use the language develops a pigment that can dye or paint things that color. Evidence of this is that all the ancient Greek writings lacked a word for “blue”. The sea is described as the color of wine and the sky is described as white. The word “blue” isn’t found in those languages until the Greeks came up with a blue dye. So, it would, with that in mind, make sense to describe a woman’s eyes as being dyed or tinted, even if the color is quite natural. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Sep 3, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
(KGT 81f.): Compared to Federation Standard, Klingon terminology associated with colors is rather limited. ... There is, however, a verb, {nguv}, which means something like be "dyed, stained, tinted", though it is seldom used except in the phrase {chay' nguv} ("How is [it] tinted?") or ... in the form {nguvmoH} ("dye, tint, stain"; that is, "cause to be dyed," etc.) -- for example, {ret'aq nguvmoH} ("He/she stains the knife handle").
I understood "seldom used except in the phrase {chay' nguv}" as meaning this is the idiomatic way Klingons ask about specific colors -- so *{chay' nguv be'vam mInDu'?} would be perfectly acceptable. While "be dyed, stained, tinted" might imply artificial, modified or added color in English, perhaps it doesn't in Klingon.
But if you don't like {nguv}, try {chum} "be colorful" instead: *{chay' chum?} "How is it colorful? In what way is it colorful?" So far, the only things we know for certain are {chum} are sunrise {jajlo’ chum} ("colorful dawn") and sunset {tlhom chum} ("colorful dusk"). (OTOH {chum} "be colorful" may just be the opposite of {Dem} "be clear, transparent, uncolored".)
Voragh
----------------------------------------Original Message--------------------------------------------- From: mayqel qunen'oS
So, I meet a friend of mine who says: "michael, I met a woman who has the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen". And me, wanting to ask "seriously ? what color are they ?", I don't have a way to ask because "klingons don't have a word for color". Or I can say something like "how are they dyed/stained/tinted" ? But the jay' problem is, that I'm not asking if she wears make-up..
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 2:28 PM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
I've had a chance to talk to Marc Okrand recently and he explained it to me. These are my own words describing the situation.
He agreed that his wording was bit confusing. KGT is correct saying that there is no noun for color in the sense of "What color is that?" or "Red is a nice color." The new word {qalmuS} is used to distinguish the colorfulness of pictures, for instance. He pointed at a color photograph and said "That one has color" and then at a black'n'white photo and said "that one has not."
Aha, that's a useful explanation. Thank you!
I think, to keep it straight, I'm going to personally define {qalmuS} as "colorfulness".
On Fri, 30 Aug 2019 at 18:21, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 10:48 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
But also, we're missing something
About what ?
I think De'vID is referring to the fact that KGT claims Klingon has no noun for "color", and yet we've got one. It's an issue he's mentioned before.
I was alluding to the info that Lieven just revealed, which I knew about but couldn't discuss until he'd done so. I think the gloss should be "color, colorfulness" or something like that (to distinguish it from the sense of "color, a specific color" that KGT p.81 claims Klingon doesn't have). -- De'vID
And I *really* wonder.. Was it sooo hard, to be given an actual english word for the meaning of {qalmuS} ? Excuse me, but what are we supposed to add next to {qalmuS} in our dictionaries ? hmm ? An entire paragraph ? Or do we need to use the force, in order to decide ? ~ dxdxdxx
Or do we need to use the force, in order to decide ?
Glosses can deceive you; don't trust them. // 'otbaywa' pIn'a' ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 16:42 To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] color entry at kli.org And I *really* wonder.. Was it sooo hard, to be given an actual english word for the meaning of {qalmuS} ? Excuse me, but what are we supposed to add next to {qalmuS} in our dictionaries ? hmm ? An entire paragraph ? Or do we need to use the force, in order to decide ? ~ dxdxdxx _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 10:43 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
And I *really* wonder..
Was it sooo hard, to be given an actual english word for the meaning of {qalmuS} ?
We have one. It's "color". The word "color" has multiple meanings. It can refer to a specific shade of light in the visual spectrum: *That tree is a nice color. My favorite color is blue.* It can also refer to the phenomenon of color itself: *This movie is in color. Can dogs see color?* *qalmuS* applies to the latter, not the former. If you're looking for other English words that might be more precise, you could also try more technical terms like "colorfulness", "chroma", or "saturation". Excuse me, but what are we supposed to add next to {qalmuS} in our
dictionaries ? hmm ? An entire paragraph ?
*qalmus* n. color (as opposed to black and white), the phenomenon of color, colorfulness, chroma
participants (8)
-
David Holt -
De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
Will Martin