I've had it with the finger verbs !
When we talk about fingers at earth, we use this numbering : thumb or great toe = number one and THEN we say second finger/toe, third finger/toe etc. So, look at this and tell me what to think : {Qay'} (v) = use the little toe {qan} (v) = use the pinkie. Is the pinkie and the little toe the same ? Why can't we have a jay' clear and unambiguous numbering which could resolve this ? Perhaps I should flush the finger verbs down the toilet, together with the "mother's sister's husband daughter go figure" words.. nach velwI' qIj
oh, and I forgot the following : {nan} (v) = use the fourth toe. So, what's referring to the little toe ? {Qay'} or {nan} ? tugh, mu'mey'vamvaD puch yuvtlhe' vIpoSmoH.. On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 12:13 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
When we talk about fingers at earth, we use this numbering :
thumb or great toe = number one and THEN we say second finger/toe, third finger/toe etc.
So, look at this and tell me what to think :
{Qay'} (v) = use the little toe {qan} (v) = use the pinkie.
Is the pinkie and the little toe the same ? Why can't we have a jay' clear and unambiguous numbering which could resolve this ?
Perhaps I should flush the finger verbs down the toilet, together with the "mother's sister's husband daughter go figure" words..
nach velwI' qIj
On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 5:13 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
When we talk about fingers at earth, we use this numbering :
thumb or great toe = number one and THEN we say second finger/toe, third finger/toe etc.
When we talk about fingers, we use their names. Thumb pointer/index middle ring pinky The toes don't have names, but sometimes we apply the finger names to them. Big toe, middle, toe, and little toe might be names, but they feel more like descriptions to me. And since we don't have set terms for the second and fourth toes, that seems to point towards not having toe names.
So, look at this and tell me what to think :
{Qay'} (v) = use the little toe {qan} (v) = use the pinkie.
Is the pinkie and the little toe the same ? Why can't we have a jay' clear and unambiguous numbering which could resolve this ?
No, your fingers and toes are not the same thing. Your fingers are on your hands while your toes are on your feet.
Perhaps I should flush the finger verbs down the toilet, together with the "mother's sister's husband daughter go figure" words..
The relationship words are very useful.
nach velwI' qIj
oh, and I forgot the following : {nan} (v) = use the fourth toe.
So, what's referring to the little toe ? {Qay'} or {nan} ?
You just said that you start with the big toe as Toe 1, so how is "fourth toe" confusing? {Qay'} is your small toe or pinky toe or fifth toe. ~naHQun
jIH:
Is the pinkie and the little toe the same ? Why can't we have a jay' clear and unambiguous numbering which could resolve this ? naHQun: No, your fingers and toes are not the same thing. Your fingers are on your hands while your toes are on your feet.
?!?!? I already knew where each set of finger is. As I understand the english non-medical way of finger description, some people use the word "pinkie" to describe the little toe as well. thus the confusion..
The relationship words are very useful.
I respect your opinion, but I don't agree. They are confusing and useless. jIH:
oh, and I forgot the following : {nan} (v) = use the fourth toe. So, what's referring to the little toe ? {Qay'} or {nan} ? naHQun: You just said that you start with the big toe as Toe 1, so how is "fourth toe" confusing?
The confusion is that on earth, we start by numbering "one" for the great toe ; so the fourth toe would be the toe medially to the little toe. If klingon however numbers "one" for the toe laterally to the big toe, then "number four" is the little one. nach velwI' qIj
On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 8:09 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
jIH:
Is the pinkie and the little toe the same ? Why can't we have a jay' clear and unambiguous numbering which could resolve this ? naHQun: No, your fingers and toes are not the same thing. Your fingers are on your hands while your toes are on your feet.
?!?!? I already knew where each set of finger is. As I understand the english non-medical way of finger description, some people use the word "pinkie" to describe the little toe as well. thus the confusion..
The finger verbs are {Sen/rIl}, {SIq}, {qay}, {qew}, and {qan}, going from thumb to little finger. The toe verbs are {mar}, {Hom}, {roS}, {nan}, and {Qay'}, going from big toe to little toe.
The relationship words are very useful.
I respect your opinion, but I don't agree. They are confusing and useless.
There are Earth languages that describe relatives the same or in similar ways. They seem to manage just fine.
david holt
As a physician, myself, I do number them from 1 to 5, but it's not always helpful to use the numbers with my patients
and here lies the heart of the problem. because numbers are confusing, the definitions of the finger verbs should not be given using numbering terms. the numbering system must either be used correctly, or not used at all. nach velwI' qIj Sent from my goat phone On 1 Aug 2016 3:30 p.m., "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
nIqolay Q
There are Earth languages that describe relatives the same or in similar ways
Well, greek isn't one of them, and we manage to understand each other just fine.
Sent from my goat phone
ghItlh mayqel qunenoS:
and here lies the heart of the problem.
because numbers are confusing, the definitions of the finger verbs should not be given using numbering terms.
the numbering system must either be used correctly, or not used at all.
Fortunately he has adhered to the numbering system you are familiar with in regards to the toes. He has deviated in regards to the fingers, but he has given us the names of the fingers as well, so you can just ignore the numbers for the fingers. However, the reason the confusion exists for the fingers is that the thumb is often not considered a finger in lay English (whereas the big toe is considered a toe). Even in Gray's Anatomy, they often speak of "the thumb and fingers" and while the metacarpals are numbered and the rays of the foot are numbered all the way to the end, Gray's Anatomy never numbers the fingers, always calling them by their names instead. Jeremy
ghItlhpu' naHQun, jatlh:
The relationship words are very useful.
jang mayqel, jatlh:
I respect your opinion, but I don't agree. They are confusing and useless.
With respect, you've almost certainly never seriously spoken a non-Indo-European language if you think the Klingon kinship terms are confusing and useless. (My apologies - I'm going to dive into deep detail here.) The way languages divide up kinship terms are as diverse as the way they divide up colours, and perhaps even moreso. I speak (among others) Turkish, and in Turkish there is not just one, but three words for "aunt": /teyze/ (your mother's sister), /hala/ (your father's sister), and /yenge/ (your mother's brother's wife). Conversely, there are no separate words for "nephew" and "niece": both are subsumed under /yeğen/. And you should see what's done in many Australian Aboriginal languages, where *every single person* in the society (and as though that weren't enough, virtually every type of animal known to them, as well as many plants and features of the landscape) is classified as a specific part of one immense kinship system, and this dictates not just your familial interactions, but who you can and can't talk to, what you can and can't hunt, where you can and can't go. It's shared across many language groups, too. My old anthropology lecturer, a fluent speaker of Yanyuwa, told us a story once about an Aboriginal man from the north of Australia who moved to Sydney (some 2700 kilometres) and when he was there met an Aboriginal woman and married her. And when he brought her home to the Top End and introduced her to his family, they chided him for marrying his daughter. Not his daughter in a blood sense, you understand, but within this kinship system it didn't matter. She had the same "skin name" as his own child would be, and so was supposed to be off-limits for marriage. The reason different languages divide up kinship systems differently has a lot to do with the way societies are structured. Not every society depends on the nuclear family; some are built on much larger clans or kinship structures, and given the importance in Klingon society of the House, which is more like a clan or small tribe than a family as we would think of it, we shouldn't be surprised that there is such a complex array of kinship terms. When House relationships are so important, it becomes crucial to be able to accurately define your relationship with a particular person. With the different terms for different types of cousins, often this arises because one set of cousins or another is considered an appropriate marriage partner within a given society. Marrying a cousin in some societies (particularly those that track kin through a single line of descent) is seen as a good way to consolidate a familial line and maintain kinship ties. Again, in Klingon society this would not be surprising, since the strength of a House is important and sometimes one might need to shore up the strength of one's House by marrying within it. If you're interested in learning more, I suggest you check this site out, which explains the six major ways in which Earth societies divide up family relations: https://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/kinterms/termsys.... There are many variations on these systems, but this site explains the most common ones and the most common features of the societies that exhibit them. I'm in the middle of rewriting a paper I put together many years ago on the implications of the Klingon kinship system in particular (I'm an archaeologist and anthropologist by training, so this is an area of great interest to me), but I'm not yet finished with that paper. When I am, I'll let you know. But for now, suffice it to say that Klingon - as expected - doesn't quite fall neatly into any of these six major types, and bears elements from several. QeS 'utlh
In English we do not number the fingers. If you said something about the fourth finger to a native English speaker, they would probably take a moment to process it and, though they would almost certainly guess correctly, they would not necessarily be confident that they got it correct. The fingers are, in order, thumb, indeed finger, middle finger, ring finger, little finger/pinky. The toes, however, get neither names nor numbers. You have to describe them or point to them. As a physician, myself, I do number them from 1 to 5, but it's not always helpful to use the numbers with my patients. I can reliably call the first toe the "big toe" and the fifth toe the "little toe" (I have heard it called "pinky toe", but without the word "toe" the word "pinky" only refers to the finger). If I say middle toe, the patients usually understand me fine. For the other two toes, I usually say, the toe next to the big toe and the toe next to the little toe. To help you remember the names of the toes, do you know the baby game which starts "This little piggy went to market"? Jeremy From: mayqel qunenoS Sent: Monday, August 1, 4:13 AM Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] I've had it with the finger verbs ! To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list When we talk about fingers at earth, we use this numbering : thumb or great toe = number one and THEN we say second finger/toe, third finger/toe etc. So, look at this and tell me what to think : {Qay'} (v) = use the little toe {qan} (v) = use the pinkie. Is the pinkie and the little toe the same ? Why can't we have a jay' clear and unambiguous numbering which could resolve this ? Perhaps I should flush the finger verbs down the toilet, together with the "mother's sister's husband daughter go figure" words.. nach velwI' qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
The finger verbs are some of my favorite parts of Klingon. Over the last few years much that has happened in Klingon development has made it more like English. That makes me sad. I prefer the parts of the language that are most intentionally "alien". On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 7:13 AM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:
In English we do not number the fingers. If you said something about the fourth finger to a native English speaker, they would probably take a moment to process it and, though they would almost certainly guess correctly, they would not necessarily be confident that they got it correct.
The fingers are, in order, thumb, indeed finger, middle finger, ring finger, little finger/pinky.
The toes, however, get neither names nor numbers. You have to describe them or point to them. As a physician, myself, I do number them from 1 to 5, but it's not always helpful to use the numbers with my patients. I can reliably call the first toe the "big toe" and the fifth toe the "little toe" (I have heard it called "pinky toe", but without the word "toe" the word "pinky" only refers to the finger). If I say middle toe, the patients usually understand me fine. For the other two toes, I usually say, the toe next to the big toe and the toe next to the little toe.
To help you remember the names of the toes, do you know the baby game which starts "This little piggy went to market"?
Jeremy
From: mayqel qunenoS Sent: Monday, August 1, 4:13 AM Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] I've had it with the finger verbs ! To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
When we talk about fingers at earth, we use this numbering : thumb or great toe = number one and THEN we say second finger/toe, third finger/toe etc. So, look at this and tell me what to think : {Qay'} (v) = use the little toe {qan} (v) = use the pinkie. Is the pinkie and the little toe the same ? Why can't we have a jay' clear and unambiguous numbering which could resolve this ? Perhaps I should flush the finger verbs down the toilet, together with the "mother's sister's husband daughter go figure" words.. nach velwI' qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 5:13 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
When we talk about fingers at earth, we use this numbering :
thumb or great toe = number one and THEN we say second finger/toe, third finger/toe etc.
I think I finally caught on on why you're confused. When I talk about fingers, I don't use numbers. So I was confused why you were talking about numbers. Then I realized that the English glosses Okrand provided do, indeed number the fingers. I usually ignore them because I use the names of the fingers. In America, and Okrand is American last I checked, we start counting with our index/pointer finger. That is, unless you're my wife or son, and then they start counting with their thumbs... The thumb isn't always considered a finger. So one could say that Humans have 1 thumb and 4 fingers. So if you were to count your fingers, you would start with the pointer finger. So my pinky is my fourth finger, final, and smallest finger. Hope that helps. ~naHQun
naHQun:
thanks ! this is wonderful ! mop qIj qunnoq On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. <nahqun@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 5:13 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
When we talk about fingers at earth, we use this numbering :
thumb or great toe = number one and THEN we say second finger/toe, third finger/toe etc.
I think I finally caught on on why you're confused.
When I talk about fingers, I don't use numbers. So I was confused why you were talking about numbers.
Then I realized that the English glosses Okrand provided do, indeed number the fingers. I usually ignore them because I use the names of the fingers.
In America, and Okrand is American last I checked, we start counting with our index/pointer finger. That is, unless you're my wife or son, and then they start counting with their thumbs...
The thumb isn't always considered a finger. So one could say that Humans have 1 thumb and 4 fingers.
So if you were to count your fingers, you would start with the pointer finger.
So my pinky is my fourth finger, final, and smallest finger.
Hope that helps.
~naHQun
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naHQun:
When will this discrimination against rIlwI'pu' end?
lawrence m. schoen :
When will this discrimination against rIlwI'pu' end?
what discrimination ? On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 6:47 PM, Lawrence M. Schoen <klingonguy@gmail.com> wrote:
naHQun:
When will this discrimination against rIlwI'pu' end?
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
lawrence m. schoen :
When will this discrimination against rIlwI'pu' end?
what discrimination ?
(HQ 10.2:7-8): the word {nItlh} "finger" means any finger, including the thumb. A hand has {vagh nItlhDu'} (five fingers), not {loS nItlhDu'} (four fingers) and a thumb. There is a specific word referring to each of the five fingers, and these words are nouns derived from verbs by means of the suffix {-wI'} (thing which does); there are two pairs for thumb. The Federation Standard translation of the verbs is a little strained, but they mean something like use (the specific finger). The associated 'finger nouns' would be literally, though quite awkwardly, "thing which is used in a thumb-like manner" or perhaps "thing which thumbs" or even "thumber" ... The two sets of words relating to thumb are pretty much interchangeable, though small children usually use {rIl} and {rIlwI'} rather than {Sen} and {SenwI'}. Similarly, adults speaking to or about children tend to use {rIl} and {rIlwI'}. Both words are used together in an idiomatic expression meaning "everybody, everyone": {SenwI'Du' rIlwI'Du' je}, literally "thumbs and thumbs". This expression is often heard without the plural suffixes: {SenwI' rIlwI' je}. And speaking of thumbs... rIl use the thumb (v) Sen use the thumb (v) rIlwI' thumb (n) SenwI' thumb (n) (HQ 10.2:8f.): Similarly, {nujDajDaq rIl'egh ghu}, literally "at his/her mouth, the baby uses at him/herself his/her thumb", is used for "the baby sucks its thumb". (HQ 10.2:8): {nISwI' HIch Sen} "fire the disruptor pistol". (lit. "use the thumb in the way it's most appropriately used on a disruptor pistol", "use the thumb to activate the disruptor pistol", "thumb the disruptor pistol" FYI: Klingon disruptor pistols have a firing stud {chu'wI'} on the butt of the gun above the handle which needed to be pressed with the thumb - or "thumbed" - in order to fire. A good picture (with labels) is at http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/purpleelaphants/images/disruptor.gif . SEE ALSO: Heng finger holes in a musical instrument(v) 'uy press down (v) -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
participants (8)
-
Christopher Kidder-Mostrom -
David Holt -
Lawrence M. Schoen -
mayqel qunenoS -
Michael Roney, Jr. -
nIqolay Q -
Rhona Fenwick -
Steven Boozer