Maus-words: News from Okrand
TL;DR: one new word {valqe'} "bat (animal)" Hello my friends, today is the 50-anniversary of a German children sho named "Die Sendung mit der Maus" (i.e. "the show with the mouse"). The topic of this episode was a view into the future, so it was obvious to make a Klingon introduction, of which I am very proud to provide it to them. You can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRgryUjxWes --------------------------------------------- Not only the TV show, also the podcast version of the entire week needed Klingon introductions, and those caused some problems which were answered by Maltz as follows: Quoted lines are my questions, lines starting with >>> are Okrand's words. ---------------------------------------------
leap year - A year in which February has 29 days. 2020 was a "leap year".
Make use of the phrase {bur DIS}, as in, for example {qatlh bur 'op DISmey?}
bat - small animal that can fly but is not a bird, looks quite creepy and can see in the dark due to his sonar voice; sleeps hanging upside down, usually found in caves.
The closest Qo'noS equivalent is a flying beast called a {valqe'}. You can decide whether you want to say {tera' valqe'} for purposes of the TV show.
hibernate, overwinter - what many animals do during the winter; a bear can hibernate. Also the bats we talk above. They hide in caves and sleep there for a very long time. [Added information: with bats, and where they overwinter, (so the word is more about "winter" than "sleep")]
Maltz didn't know of any special way to say "overwinter." He said to just say something like {qaStaHvIS qImroq bIrqu', nuqDaq Qong valqe'mey?} if that covers what they're driving at.
material - There is the word {Hap} "matter" that appears in many materials (e.g. {Sor Hap} "wood"), but can it be used as "material"? Can I say {Hapmey} for "several materials"?
{Hap} (without {-mey}) should work.
the future - When I say a phrase like "In the future, nobody will be poor", may I add {-Daq} to {tuch}? {tuchDaq mamIp}?? Or must it be something like {qaSDI' tuch}?
{qaSDI' tuch} should work.
Can I say {to'waQ wIyIv} for "chewing gum"?
There is an idiomatic expression {to'waQ yIv} that means to take some time to consider a matter, but its meaning comes from the fact that {to'waQ} takes a relatively long time to chew (before swallowing), compared to other things you might be chewing, like muscle. It does not follow from this that Klingons chew {to'waQ} for pleasure, just because the flavor lingers longer or because it works off nervous energy. Maybe {req} would be better than {to'waQ} since, if you were to chew {req}, you'd probably be doing it just for the purpose of chewing (and whatever pleasure or benefit that may bring in and of itself), unlike {to'waQ}, which you'd be chewing for the purpose of grinding it up so you could finally swallow it.
------------------------------------- This will be archived at https://qephom.de/e/message_from_maltz.html -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/DieSendungMitDerMaus
On Mon, Mar 08, 2021 at 12:25:25PM +0100, De'vID wrote:
On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 at 16:35, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
TL;DR: one new word {valqe'} "bat (animal)"
{bur DIS} adds a new meaning or usage to the existing word {bur}.
(Does Dr. Okrand think that Val Kilmer was the best Batman?)
Alternatively, there might have been someone whose name would be trancribed or abbreviated as {qe'} who is very clever. Perhaps a cat? The cat has to be clever to catch the flying mouse (= bat in German)? - SapIr / kechpaja
'oqranD:
Maltz didn't know of any special way to say "overwinter." He said to just say something like {qaStaHvIS qImroq bIrqu', nuqDaq Qong valqe'mey?} if that covers what they're driving at.
I wonder whether the {qImroq bIrqu'} should be taken as the Ca'non way of expressing "winter". ~ Dana'an woe unto you scribes and pharisees hypocrites
Am 24.03.2021 um 13:26 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
'oqranD:
Maltz didn't know of any special way to say "overwinter." He said to just say something like {qaStaHvIS qImroq bIrqu', nuqDaq Qong valqe'mey?} if that covers what they're driving at.
I wonder whether the {qImroq bIrqu'} should be taken as the Ca'non way of expressing "winter".
I think that should be okay. Okrand has used {qImroq tuj} before on qep'a' 2016. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/Word/KImrok
On 3/24/2021 8:40 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 24.03.2021 um 13:26 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
'oqranD:
Maltz didn't know of any special way to say "overwinter." He said to just say something like {qaStaHvIS qImroq bIrqu', nuqDaq Qong valqe'mey?} if that covers what they're driving at.
I wonder whether the {qImroq bIrqu'} should be taken as the Ca'non way of expressing "winter".
I think that should be okay. Okrand has used {qImroq tuj} before on qep'a' 2016
Without further explanation, it should be considered "a thing that Okrand has canonically said" rather than "the canonical way to translate /winter./" I wouldn't expect the *-qu'* to be mandatory, for instance, and we cannot rule out the possibility that the given sentence is meant to express something like /what if there's an unusually cold season?/ We also don't know much about how the climate of Kronos may have influenced the development of Klingon in this matter. In English we have words for the cold season /(winter),/ the hot season /(summer),/ the season when growth begins /(spring),/ and the season where hibernation begins (/autumn/ or/fall/). But we don't have native words for the rainy and dry seasons of equatorial climates, because English did not develop in this kind of climate. So I don't take it as an absolute given that Klingon should name the same seasons that we from temperate climates do, or that if we see them name one of our seasons that that name is the standard term for a common idea among Klingons. I would, at most, say that *qImroq bIr* is an acceptable way to express /winter,/ whether or not it's THE way. It means /cold season,/ and that simply describes winter, just as /rainy season/ describes an equatorial season but we don't have a word for it and it's not THE way to say it. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 09:07:02AM -0400, SuStel wrote:
We also don't know much about how the climate of Kronos may have influenced the development of Klingon in this matter. In English we have words for the cold season /(winter),/ the hot season /(summer),/ the season when growth begins /(spring),/ and the season where hibernation begins (/autumn/ or/fall/). But we don't have native words for the rainy and dry seasons of equatorial climates, because English did not develop in this kind of climate. So I don't take it as an absolute given that Klingon should name the same seasons that we from temperate climates do, or that if we see them name one of our seasons that that name is the standard term for a common idea among Klingons.
Specifically, if Qo'noS doesn't have much axial tilt and has a fairly circular orbit around its star, it might not have meaningful seasons as we know them at all. In that case, perhaps {qImroq} is an old word for something similar to be not exactly like a season (say, a period of time, or the duration of war, or something like that) that then got repurposed after the Klingons discovered other planets and realized that their climates varied throughout the year. - SapIr
On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 12:25 PM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 at 16:35, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
TL;DR: one new word {valqe'} "bat (animal)"
(Does Dr. Okrand think that Val Kilmer was the best Batman?)
Okrand has used *{qe'} to transliterate the letter "K" in {'oqe'} (OK, a reference to the O.K. Corral), so {valqe'} could plausibly be "Val K.". As well, the word {val} means "be clever, smart, intelligent" and is in the original edition of TKD, which came out in 1985. The Val Kilmer movie "Real Genius" came out in August 1985, the same year as TKD1ed. So both {val} and {valqe'} seem to be references to Val Kilmer. I wonder if Klingons think bats are a particularly clever animal? -- De'vID
On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 at 16:35, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
today is the 50-anniversary of a German children sho named "Die Sendung mit der Maus" (i.e. "the show with the mouse"). The topic of this episode was a view into the future, so it was obvious to make a Klingon introduction, of which I am very proud to provide it to them. You can see it here:
Incidentally, you can watch the whole show here (but it's in German with no English subtitles): https://youtu.be/CxmO2ZTSTWE
the future
- When I say a phrase like "In the future, nobody will be poor", may I add {-Daq} to {tuch}? {tuchDaq mamIp}?? Or must it be something like {qaSDI' tuch}?
{qaSDI' tuch} should work.
This was discussed on Discord but since the mailing list is the official archive I'll post about it here too. In English, "in the future" is ambiguous: it can refer either to a point or an interval. In Klingon, the former is {'op pIq} and the latter is {tuch}. (And mutatis mutandis with "in the past", {'op ret}, and {pa'logh}.) This was explained at qep'a' cha'maH wejDIch. There was a question about why it's {tuch} and not {'op pIq} in the above example. The example might be confusing out of context because "in the future, nobody will be poor" would normally be interpreted in English as meaning something like "at some point in the future, we will eliminate poverty". But that should be {'op pIq Huch Hutlh pagh} or something like that. In the show, they talk about Leben in der Zukunft (living in the future), i.e., what life might be like in the period of time we refer to as "the future (as a whole)". In that context, {tuch} is obviously the right word. But one should also be careful to note that {qaSDI' tuch} is not a fixed expression for "in the future (as a whole)", and that other contexts may call for {qaStaHvIS tuch} or {tuch} as a time stamp. The point of the quoted text was really that {-Daq} cannot be attached to {tuch} (i.e., in Klingon, "the future (as a whole)" is not thought of as a spatial location). The example about being poor or the fact that {-DI'} was used were sort of tangential to the main point. (This example illustrates why it's important to provide a lot of context when quoting an answer to a question by Dr. Okrand.) -- De'vID
De'vID:
other contexts may call for {qaStaHvIS tuch} or {tuch} as a time stamp
Although I followed the relevant discussion at Discord, I still don't understand when {tuch} on its' own should be used as a timestamp, instead of {qaSDI' tuch} and {qaStaHvIS tuch}. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
I’m sure that De’vID or Lieven will respond to your question, but while we wait here’s an example with {tuch} to study (the only one AFAIK): ’ach ’ejyo’ qangtlhIn nIb pabtaH ’ej vangwI’ najwI’ je puq poH SIghbogh tuch’e’ lujalbogh ngotlhwI’pu’ boptaH. … while embracing the same ideology and hope for the future that inspired a generation of dreamers and doers. [DSC Netflix Klingon Announcement] N.B this is not a literal translation. Voragh _________________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of D qunen'oS De'vID:
other contexts may call for {qaStaHvIS tuch} or {tuch} as a time stamp
Although I followed the relevant discussion at Discord, I still don't understand when {tuch} on its' own should be used as a timestamp, instead of {qaSDI' tuch} and {qaStaHvIS tuch}.
On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 at 16:05, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
I’m sure that De’vID or Lieven will respond to your question, but while we wait here’s an example with {tuch} to study (the only one AFAIK):
’ach ’ejyo’ qangtlhIn nIb pabtaH ’ej vangwI’ najwI’ je puq poH
SIghbogh tuch’e’ lujalbogh ngotlhwI’pu’ boptaH.
… while embracing the same ideology and hope for the future
that inspired a generation of dreamers and doers.
[DSC Netflix Klingon Announcement]
While the English version says "dreamers and doers", I like that the Klingon version puts the {vangwI'} before the {najwI'}. -- De'vID
On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 at 16:05, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu <mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu>> wrote:
’ach ’ejyo’ qangtlhIn nIb pabtaH ’ej vangwI’ najwI’ je puq poH ____ SIghbogh tuch’e’ lujalbogh ngotlhwI’pu’ boptaH. ____ … while embracing the same ideology and hope for the future____ that inspired a generation of dreamers and doers.____
[DSC Netflix Klingon Announcement]
You should all know that this sentence is not canon. It was me who translated the Netflix announcement. Am 06.06.2022 um 21:43 schrieb De'vID:
While the English version says "dreamers and doers", I like that the Klingon version puts the {vangwI'} before the {najwI'}.
I'm glad you like it. I did that on purpose. :-) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/AliceInWonderland
On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 at 12:33, D qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
other contexts may call for {qaStaHvIS tuch} or {tuch} as a time stamp
Although I followed the relevant discussion at Discord, I still don't understand when {tuch} on its' own should be used as a timestamp, instead of {qaSDI' tuch} and {qaStaHvIS tuch}.
In general, when would you use a time element, {qaSDI'}, or {qaStaHvIS}? {tuch} is not special, in that regard. What's the difference between "tomorrow I do something", "as soon as tomorrow happens I do something", and "while tomorrow happens I do something"? Replace "tomorrow" with "[in] the future". -- De'vID
De'vID:
What's the difference between "tomorrow I do something", "as soon as tomorrow happens I do something", and "while tomorrow happens I do something"? Replace "tomorrow" with "[in] the future".
There's a huge practical difference between "tomorrow" and "the future as a whole". First of all, we don't know how Klingons define "the future". Does it start immediately, or does "the present" continue for a while and only after that the future begins? Can there be multiple different futures? Is it relative/deitic? Can I talk about the near future and the far future? Which of these possible interpretations does tuch by itself mean without further context? It's possible that even Klingons don't know (if the concept is fuzzy enough). Tomorrow is a well defined time-span, so the different ways to use it in sentences have a clear meaning. Future is not well defined (at least for us). I think Dana'an's questions are important, but impossible to answer with our current knowledge. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, June 6th, 2022 at 23.36, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 at 12:33, D qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
other contexts may call for {qaStaHvIS tuch} or {tuch} as a time stamp
Although I followed the relevant discussion at Discord, I still don't understand when {tuch} on its' own should be used as a timestamp, instead of {qaSDI' tuch} and {qaStaHvIS tuch}.
In general, when would you use a time element, {qaSDI'}, or {qaStaHvIS}? {tuch} is not special, in that regard.
What's the difference between "tomorrow I do something", "as soon as tomorrow happens I do something", and "while tomorrow happens I do something"? Replace "tomorrow" with "[in] the future".
--
De'vID
participants (8)
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D qunen'oS -
De'vID -
Iikka Hauhio -
kechpaja＠kechpaja.com -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS
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Steven Boozer -
SuStel