If pIqaD became Ca'Non..
I just thought of something interesting.. If pIqaD ever became Ca'Non, with the usual community-approved way by which things become Ca'Non, then perhaps that would mean that.. Klingon has place for no other punctuation except periods and commas, since these are the only punctuation signs for which there are pIqaD symbols. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
If pIqaD would ever become canon - whatever that means in that situation - I am sure that there will be a group that will develop or create more symbols that we can use to be able to write in pIqaD. Going more into detail, of course we may say that Klingons do not exist blabla etc, but on the other hand if we ever find a way to add to unicode (that would be my dream) then we certainly need lots of symbols simply to be able to communicate. I'm not saying that all of those we use are important, but it would be nice to have an @-sign which one can use while writing, even if it's just the letter {a} in a circle. Am 29.04.2020 um 14:40 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
I just thought of something interesting..
If pIqaD ever became Ca'Non, with the usual community-approved way by which things become Ca'Non, then perhaps that would mean that..
Klingon has place for no other punctuation except periods and commas, since these are the only punctuation signs for which there are pIqaD symbols. --
Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Unicode
On 4/29/2020 8:40 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
with the usual community-approved way by which things become Ca'Non
The what?!
Klingon has place for no other punctuation except periods and commas, since these are the only punctuation signs for which there are pIqaD symbols.
All we know about their canonicity is that someone at Skybox decided to add triangles into sentences where periods and commas would go in English. That's neither exclusive nor settled. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Even if we are never shown any other punctuation on screen, I think the wording of your statement is misleading. The marks are not actually a comma and a period. I would say that pIqaD has two punctuation marks: One for separating sentences and one for separating ideas within a sentence. English punctuation marks can be divided into these two groups, but we have multiple choices in the sentence separating group. What I want to avoid is the idea that when translating a question, we don't say, well you have to end the question with a period because Klingon only has periods. English also does not have an interrogative suffix; things are going to be slightly different in the two languages. If the Klingon uses a question word or the -'a' verb suffix, then the English should use a question mark even though Klingon only has one type of sentence ending mark. Similarly with exclamation marks on exclamations. If writing in Okrandian transcription, I would actually accept periods on questions and exclamations, though since you are using the Roman character set, it's a shame not to use the variety of punctuation marks available where appropriate. janSIy (Jeremy, not David) Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2020 7:40:30 AM To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] If pIqaD became Ca'Non.. I just thought of something interesting.. If pIqaD ever became Ca'Non, with the usual community-approved way by which things become Ca'Non, then perhaps that would mean that.. Klingon has place for no other punctuation except periods and commas, since these are the only punctuation signs for which there are pIqaD symbols. ~ mayqel qunen'oS _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4/29/2020 8:59 AM, David Holt wrote:
Even if we are never shown any other punctuation on screen, I think the wording of your statement is misleading. The marks are not actually a comma and a period. I would say that pIqaD has two punctuation marks: One for separating sentences and one for separating ideas within a sentence.
I tend to agree with this, however the ones that use the triangles end with a triangle, so the punctuation marks are clearly terminators, not separators. The cards are inconsistent as to which triangle ends sentences, and of course none of the cards have Klingon writing that is actually readable (at least, not that matches the Klingon text). It astounds me that this somehow became "real" Klingon punctuation in people's minds. If I were given the task of inventing meanings for the two types of triangles as punctuation, I would probably do this: the up-turned triangle is an IDEA SEPARATOR. Sometimes Klingon is happy to smush two sentences together to form a single idea, as in *'uSDaj chop; chev*/Bite his leg off!/, and these would not be separated. Conjunctions would not have their components separated. The down-turned triangle would separate dependent clauses from other clauses in an idea wherever they appeared. For example (I hope the triangles survive the sending of this message): *juHwIj 'el HejwI' ▲ vIleghDI' ▼ qovIjwIjvaD jIjatlh 'uSDaj chop chev **▲ Haw'meH HejwI' **▼ pay' Qorwagh vegh **▲ ghaH vIHIv jIH'e' **▼ vIleghqa'chugh * But this is just my aesthetic preference, supposing I had to use triangles at all (they don't suit the usual typeface). It doesn't match what anyone else has been doing with them. (For instance, in my mind, triangles resting on their sides are stable and are more suitable for ending thoughts, where you can gather yourself for the next idea, while triangles standing on their points are unstable, meaning you have to move on to the next thing quickly.) **** -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I agree with everything SuStel said there, with the addition that the point down triangle can be used with conjunctions particularly in a list of complex noun phrases and for multiple conjoined sentences. And to be clear, I would say that the markers are never required if other methods of clarification are being used. If you are only saying one sentence or are placing each sentence on a separate line, then you don't need to use the point up marker. And if your clauses and phrases are clear without them, you don't have to use the point down markers. Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2020 8:30:17 AM To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org <tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org> Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] If pIqaD became Ca'Non.. On 4/29/2020 8:59 AM, David Holt wrote: Even if we are never shown any other punctuation on screen, I think the wording of your statement is misleading. The marks are not actually a comma and a period. I would say that pIqaD has two punctuation marks: One for separating sentences and one for separating ideas within a sentence. I tend to agree with this, however the ones that use the triangles end with a triangle, so the punctuation marks are clearly terminators, not separators. The cards are inconsistent as to which triangle ends sentences, and of course none of the cards have Klingon writing that is actually readable (at least, not that matches the Klingon text). It astounds me that this somehow became "real" Klingon punctuation in people's minds. If I were given the task of inventing meanings for the two types of triangles as punctuation, I would probably do this: the up-turned triangle is an IDEA SEPARATOR. Sometimes Klingon is happy to smush two sentences together to form a single idea, as in 'uSDaj chop; chev Bite his leg off!, and these would not be separated. Conjunctions would not have their components separated. The down-turned triangle would separate dependent clauses from other clauses in an idea wherever they appeared. For example (I hope the triangles survive the sending of this message): juHwIj 'el HejwI' ▲ vIleghDI' ▼ qovIjwIjvaD jIjatlh 'uSDaj chop chev ▲ Haw'meH HejwI' ▼ pay' Qorwagh vegh ▲ ghaH vIHIv jIH'e' ▼ vIleghqa'chugh But this is just my aesthetic preference, supposing I had to use triangles at all (they don't suit the usual typeface). It doesn't match what anyone else has been doing with them. (For instance, in my mind, triangles resting on their sides are stable and are more suitable for ending thoughts, where you can gather yourself for the next idea, while triangles standing on their points are unstable, meaning you have to move on to the next thing quickly.) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 4/29/2020 9:45 AM, David Holt wrote:
I agree with everything SuStel said there, with the addition that the point down triangle can be used with conjunctions particularly in a list of complex noun phrases and for multiple conjoined sentences.
What I outlined as my aesthetic preference doesn't include conjoined complicated noun phrases. I think I'd need a third symbol for that, if it were absolutely necessary. If we can figure out compound sentences like *'uSDaj chop chev,* I think we can figure out complicated noun conjunctions. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 4/29/2020 11:39 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
ghunchu'wI':
It is used in books collaborated on by Marc Okrand
Interesting.. I was under the impression that okrand had never "formally" said that klingon normally is to be written in pIqaD.
No, he said in TKD that Klingons DO write in *pIqaD,* but never explained how *pIqaD* worked or even whether it is the writing we saw in /Star Trek: The Motion Picture/ and /Star Trek III/ (and, very slightly, in the original /Star Trek/). He seems happy to go along with what other people have invented, which is the simple alphabet the KLI has always displayed. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
David Holt:
Even if we are never shown any other punctuation on screen, I think the wording of your statement is misleading. The marks are not actually a comma and a period. I would say that pIqaD has two punctuation marks: One for separating sentences and one for separating ideas within a sentence. English punctuation marks can be divided into these two groups, but we have multiple choices in the sentence separating group.
On the other hand I believe, that whoever created the pIqaD, simply didn't care to create additional symbols for colons, semicolons, etc. And we're just trying - once again - to find excuses for everything. I can't believe that someone sat down, consciously classified english punctuation in just two groups, and then said "ok, because klingon is alien and all that crap, it stands to reason that there's no need for anything else." There *is* need for *everything* else (colons, semicolons, etc..) I don't think that all natural languages are written with the punctuation we know, just because someone centuries ago woke up in the morning, and got sexually aroused by the idea of creating the punctuation we know today. I can understand in-game thinking for the people who like to think of klingon as an alien language, but at the end of the day, in-game thinking is just that. In-game thinking and nothing more. Klingon isn't alien. It's a human constructed language, created by a human, used by humans. If there were aliens, I doubt we could begin to understand their means of communication. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
Aside from the arguments about which, if any, English punctuation that Klingon ought to have, nobody has brought up the excellent likelihood that if Klingon HAD punctuation, it just might be for things radically different from English. Consider the reverse colon for SAO... charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Apr 30, 2020, at 7:08 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
David Holt:
Even if we are never shown any other punctuation on screen, I think the wording of your statement is misleading. The marks are not actually a comma and a period. I would say that pIqaD has two punctuation marks: One for separating sentences and one for separating ideas within a sentence. English punctuation marks can be divided into these two groups, but we have multiple choices in the sentence separating group.
On the other hand I believe, that whoever created the pIqaD, simply didn't care to create additional symbols for colons, semicolons, etc. And we're just trying - once again - to find excuses for everything.
I can't believe that someone sat down, consciously classified english punctuation in just two groups, and then said "ok, because klingon is alien and all that crap, it stands to reason that there's no need for anything else." There *is* need for *everything* else (colons, semicolons, etc..) I don't think that all natural languages are written with the punctuation we know, just because someone centuries ago woke up in the morning, and got sexually aroused by the idea of creating the punctuation we know today.
I can understand in-game thinking for the people who like to think of klingon as an alien language, but at the end of the day, in-game thinking is just that. In-game thinking and nothing more.
Klingon isn't alien. It's a human constructed language, created by a human, used by humans. If there were aliens, I doubt we could begin to understand their means of communication.
~ mayqel qunen'oS _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 at 17:13, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
Aside from the arguments about which, if any, English punctuation that Klingon ought to have, nobody has brought up the excellent likelihood that if Klingon HAD punctuation, it just might be for things radically different from English.
In TNG and other shows, we often saw the {pIqaD} glyphs rotated by multiples of 90 degrees within the same text. I've always thought that it would be neat if rotation was the way to mark off a dependent clause or something or indicate things which might've been indicated by punctuation in English. -- De'vID
On 4/29/2020 10:42 AM, Alan Anderson wrote:
On Apr 29, 2020, at 8:40 AM, mayqel qunen'oS<mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
If pIqaD ever became Ca'Non “If”?
It is part of the Star Trek canon. It is used in books collaborated on by Marc Okrand.
We also know that this banner canonically says "Welcome Klingons." https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9d/c6/77/9dc677a04f3ce60c873d983b8d1fb5c9.jpg (The image is a recreation of the one that actually appeared on screen.) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (7)
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Alan Anderson -
David Holt -
De'vID -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel -
Will Martin