Re: [tlhIngan Hol] If pIqaD became Ca'Non..
Am 30.04.2020 um 11:15 schrieb Andrew Mac:
It would be great to be able to visualize how a dictionary used by the Klingons would be alphabetized. I wonder what the alphabetical order is in Klingon. I like the request for Klingon alphabetical order at the chabal page, and don’t understand why so many people are downvoting it.
I guess because that's not something useful to have. I mean, what would it change? What's the purpose of having that? Next, we live in a world of parallel universes regarding the Klingon writing system, and they overlap. - TKD says "we know nothing about the writing system, and we use the English alphabetical order for convenience". - KLI says "here's a suggestion" and everybody uses it, but it's not canon - DSC uses those same letters, making them Star Trek canon. - nitpickers say that those letters are never canonically explained, so they could mean anything. So depending on what game we play, reading Klingon is "very hard" (Scotty, ST4) or it's a simply sound-to-character mapping. Where I'm pointing to is that I believe that Okrand intentionally keeps avoiding saying anything about the alphabet, because he first wrote in TKD that we do not know about it. Of course, he "accepts" what we are using, but that does not make it canon. If he would provide a Klingon alphabetical order, he would have to either base it on our used KLI pIqaD (thus making it "okrandian" canon), or he would need to make up something entirely different — and that could be anything (and knowing him, it would be something very irregularly complicated). -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/PIqaD
The information that pIqaD was regarded as so mysterious in TKD, and was described as being particularly adapted to describing Klingon dialectal differences suggests that the pIqaD we know may not be the "full" pIqaD. I wonder if the specific pIqaD letters we use might actually be a simplified phonetic system; the equivalent to Hangeul in Korean, or kana in Japanese. That would allow us to regard the pIqaD we know as "real", while still leaving the door open for more.
There *is* need for *everything* else (colons, semicolons, etc..) I don't think that all natural languages are written with the punctuation we know, just because someone centuries ago woke up in the morning, and got sexually aroused by the idea of creating the punctuation we know today.
Language follows complicated paths, and punctuation has and continues to exist on a spectrum. Chinese writing was fine with no punctuation for millennia, then some inconsistent use of a full stop and a half stop for a few centuries, before adopting more punctuation in recent years. Thai and Devanagari have considerably fewer punctuation marks than English, and my understanding is that they are mostly optional. There may be more punctuation in pIqaD, but if so, I hope it isn't too similar to any language we know here on Earth; that'd be terribly uninteresting. //loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 12:00 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org; tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] If pIqaD became Ca'Non.. Am 30.04.2020 um 11:15 schrieb Andrew Mac:
It would be great to be able to visualize how a dictionary used by the Klingons would be alphabetized. I wonder what the alphabetical order is in Klingon. I like the request for Klingon alphabetical order at the chabal page, and don’t understand why so many people are downvoting it.
I guess because that's not something useful to have. I mean, what would it change? What's the purpose of having that? Next, we live in a world of parallel universes regarding the Klingon writing system, and they overlap. - TKD says "we know nothing about the writing system, and we use the English alphabetical order for convenience". - KLI says "here's a suggestion" and everybody uses it, but it's not canon - DSC uses those same letters, making them Star Trek canon. - nitpickers say that those letters are never canonically explained, so they could mean anything. So depending on what game we play, reading Klingon is "very hard" (Scotty, ST4) or it's a simply sound-to-character mapping. Where I'm pointing to is that I believe that Okrand intentionally keeps avoiding saying anything about the alphabet, because he first wrote in TKD that we do not know about it. Of course, he "accepts" what we are using, but that does not make it canon. If he would provide a Klingon alphabetical order, he would have to either base it on our used KLI pIqaD (thus making it "okrandian" canon), or he would need to make up something entirely different — and that could be anything (and knowing him, it would be something very irregularly complicated). -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/PIqaD _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Whatever the canon answer is, I will continue using the suggestions of the KLI because, well, it's what we have. While typing on the Internet, the Latin alphabet's fine, but handwriting diacritics and triacritics is a pain in the butt. Much better is handwritten pIqaD. And, yeah, we're guessing on the punctuation. But I think most people have come to at least recognize the convention of triangle=full stop, upside down triangle=partial stop (with the controversial *tIq'ghob* as an exclamation mark.) It's a living language and we've got to make do sometimes. I like what loghaD is suggesting and it's definitely crossed my mind before. I hope one day this theory turns out to be true! Le jeu. 30 avr. 2020, à 07 h 46, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> a écrit :
The information that pIqaD was regarded as so mysterious in TKD, and was described as being particularly adapted to describing Klingon dialectal differences suggests that the pIqaD we know may not be the "full" pIqaD.
I wonder if the specific pIqaD letters we use might actually be a simplified phonetic system; the equivalent to Hangeul in Korean, or kana in Japanese. That would allow us to regard the pIqaD we know as "real", while still leaving the door open for more.
There *is* need for *everything* else (colons, semicolons, etc..) I don't think that all natural languages are written with the punctuation we know, just because someone centuries ago woke up in the morning, and got sexually aroused by the idea of creating the punctuation we know today.
Language follows complicated paths, and punctuation has and continues to exist on a spectrum. Chinese writing was fine with no punctuation for millennia, then some inconsistent use of a full stop and a half stop for a few centuries, before adopting more punctuation in recent years. Thai and Devanagari have considerably fewer punctuation marks than English, and my understanding is that they are mostly optional.
There may be more punctuation in pIqaD, but if so, I hope it isn't too similar to any language we know here on Earth; that'd be terribly uninteresting.
//loghaD
________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 12:00 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org; tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] If pIqaD became Ca'Non..
Am 30.04.2020 um 11:15 schrieb Andrew Mac:
It would be great to be able to visualize how a dictionary used by the Klingons would be alphabetized. I wonder what the alphabetical order is in Klingon. I like the request for Klingon alphabetical order at the chabal page, and don’t understand why so many people are downvoting it.
I guess because that's not something useful to have. I mean, what would it change? What's the purpose of having that?
Next, we live in a world of parallel universes regarding the Klingon writing system, and they overlap. - TKD says "we know nothing about the writing system, and we use the English alphabetical order for convenience". - KLI says "here's a suggestion" and everybody uses it, but it's not canon - DSC uses those same letters, making them Star Trek canon. - nitpickers say that those letters are never canonically explained, so they could mean anything.
So depending on what game we play, reading Klingon is "very hard" (Scotty, ST4) or it's a simply sound-to-character mapping.
Where I'm pointing to is that I believe that Okrand intentionally keeps avoiding saying anything about the alphabet, because he first wrote in TKD that we do not know about it. Of course, he "accepts" what we are using, but that does not make it canon. If he would provide a Klingon alphabetical order, he would have to either base it on our used KLI pIqaD (thus making it "okrandian" canon), or he would need to make up something entirely different — and that could be anything (and knowing him, it would be something very irregularly complicated).
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/PIqaD _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
qay' KLI pIqaD... Dalqu'mo'. Daj tlhIngan Hol pab, QIch, nugh lo' je; Dalchu' pIqaDqoqvetlh napqu'.
jIQochchu'. 'IH 'e' vIHar jIH. pImqu''a' 'oH, DIvI' Hol ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS je? ghobe'. qay'qu''a'? *ghobe' *jIjatlh. Le jeu. 30 avr. 2020, à 10 h 45, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> a écrit :
qay' KLI pIqaD... Dalqu'mo'. Daj tlhIngan Hol pab, QIch, nugh lo' je; Dalchu' pIqaDqoqvetlh napqu'.
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 30.04.2020 um 17:12 schrieb Jackson Bradley:
jIQochchu'. 'IH 'e' vIHar jIH. pImqu''a' 'oH, DIvI' Hol ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS je? ghobe'. qay'qu''a'? /ghobe' /jIjatlh.
wa' DoS wIqIp SuStel jIH je. 'ach Hoch vIQochbe'; 'IH KLI pIqaD 'e' vIHar je, 'ach nov Ho'DoS 'oHbe'ba'. tera' ghItlhmeH Ho'DoSmey tIpatlhmoH: rurbe'qu' 'aSya' Holmey Ho'DoS, 'ewrop Holmey Ho'DoS je. vaj qatlh 'ewrop Ho'DoS rur tlhIngan Hol pIqaD? 'ewrop Hol rurbogh ngutlhmey vIparqu'. qatlh L rur lay? qatlh Delta rur Day? 'ej qatlh tera' qaghwI' rurqu' tlhIngan qaghwI'? tlhIngan Hol Ho'DoS vI'oghnIS net jalchugh, vaj pagh'e' wISovbogh rur 'oH. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/PIqaD
On 4/30/2020 11:12 AM, Jackson Bradley wrote:
jIQochchu'. 'IH 'e' vIHar jIH. pImqu''a' 'oH, DIvI' Hol ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS je? ghobe'. qay'qu''a'? /ghobe' /jIjatlh.
'ach bIjatlhpu' vIlo' wIghajmo'. teHbe'law'. Dalo' DaparHa'mo'. 'eb 'an 'oH KLI pIqaD'e'. Do'Ha'. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
pIqaD ngutlhmey chenmoHmeH nuv, De'wI' lo'chugh, vaj 'IH kli pIqaD. 'a pIqaD ngutlhmey chenmoHmeH nuv, ghopDaj lo'chugh, vaj moHchoH ngutlhmeyvam. ~ m.q.
teH cha' vItmeyvetlh. vIparHa' 'ej vIlo', wIghajmo'. pIqaD bopbogh latlh De' wIghojchugh 'ej, ghantoH, ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS tIQ 'otHa'chugh matlh, ghu'vetlh vIparHa'qu'ba'. 'ach Dal je latlh tlhIngan Hol DI'on (ghantoH wa'maH wuv toghmeH Ho'DoSDaj.) chaq DIvI' ngutlh leghDI', ghItlhmeH Ho'DoSchaj lunapmoH 'e' luwuq tlhInganpu' 'ej vaj DaH cha' ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS lutu'lu' 'ach latlh DISovbe'. Le jeu. 30 avr. 2020, à 11 h 44, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> a écrit :
On 4/30/2020 11:12 AM, Jackson Bradley wrote:
jIQochchu'. 'IH 'e' vIHar jIH. pImqu''a' 'oH, DIvI' Hol ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS je? ghobe'. qay'qu''a'? *ghobe' *jIjatlh.
'ach bIjatlhpu' vIlo' wIghajmo'. teHbe'law'. Dalo' DaparHa'mo'.
'eb 'an 'oH KLI pIqaD'e'. Do'Ha'.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
DalHa’choHmeH pIqaD, latlh voDleH boloSba’. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Apr 30, 2020, at 11:53 AM, Jackson Bradley <j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com> wrote:
teH cha' vItmeyvetlh. vIparHa' 'ej vIlo', wIghajmo'. pIqaD bopbogh latlh De' wIghojchugh 'ej, ghantoH, ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS tIQ 'otHa'chugh matlh, ghu'vetlh vIparHa'qu'ba'. 'ach Dal je latlh tlhIngan Hol DI'on (ghantoH wa'maH wuv toghmeH Ho'DoSDaj.) chaq DIvI' ngutlh leghDI', ghItlhmeH Ho'DoSchaj lunapmoH 'e' luwuq tlhInganpu' 'ej vaj DaH cha' ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS lutu'lu' 'ach latlh DISovbe'.
Le jeu. 30 avr. 2020, à 11 h 44, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> a écrit : On 4/30/2020 11:12 AM, Jackson Bradley wrote:
jIQochchu'. 'IH 'e' vIHar jIH. pImqu''a' 'oH, DIvI' Hol ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS je? ghobe'. qay'qu''a'? ghobe' jIjatlh. 'ach bIjatlhpu' vIlo' wIghajmo'. teHbe'law'. Dalo' DaparHa'mo'.
'eb 'an 'oH KLI pIqaD'e'. Do'Ha'.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org <http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org> _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4/30/2020 12:02 PM, Will Martin wrote:
DalHa’choHmeH pIqaD, latlh voDleH boloSba’.
nuja' tlhIngan Hol mu'ghom: gheSDI' ta' chu', choH ta' Hol buv. nuja' je mu'ghom: Hoch tlhIngan Hol SeghmeyvaD mIt pIqaD. vaj gheSDI' ta' chu', choHbe'ba' pIqaD. ru'Ha'law'. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Apr 30, 2020, at 10:13, Jackson Bradley <j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com> wrote:
jIQochchu'. 'IH 'e' vIHar jIH. pImqu''a' 'oH, DIvI' Hol ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS je? ghobe'. qay'qu''a'? ghobe' jIjatlh.
'IHbe' jatlhpu'be' SuStel. Dal jatlhpu'. chaq 'IHbe' 'e' Dam je, 'ach Dal KLI pIqaD 'e' wIrIchDI' potlhbe' tu'qom bopbogh vuDDaj'e'. Dalbej ghItlhmeH Ho'DoSvam. vIlo'qu', 'ej vItIv, 'a Dalqu' 'e' vIDam. wab naQ wab poD ghap 'oSmo' ngIq KLI pIqaD ngutlh, “alphabet” 'oH KLI pIqaD'e'. nap alphabet, 'ej napmo' Dal. pIjHa' DajlaH 'op alphabet ngutlh, wa' tu'qom neH ghajbe'mo'. ghantoH: Say tIq Say run je tIqel. rut alphabet 'en lo'lu'taHvIS qaSlaH je wanI'vam, 'ach alphabet'e' qubqu'. 'op ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS'e', mu' 'oS ngutlh 'ej wab 'oSbe'. latlh'e', mu' wab joq 'oS ngutlh. latlh'e', 'InDogh 'oS ngutlh. latlh'e', wabmey poD neH ghItlhlu'. latlh'e', wabmey poD 'oS ngutlhna'mey 'ej wabmey naQ 'oS ghewmey (tlhavqop bIHbe'). Sarqu' tera' ghItlhmeH Ho'DoSmey. loQ rurchuq tlhIngan Hol DIvI' Hol je, bIH qollaHchu'mo' Humanpu' tlhInganpu' je, 'ach pImqu' QIch wabchaj, pabchaj, mu'tay'chaj je. pIm bIH net qelDI', tlhoS nIb DIvI' Hol ghItlhmeH Ho'DoS, KLI pIqaD je.
participants (7)
-
Felix Malmenbeck -
Hugh Son puqloD -
Jackson Bradley -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel -
Will Martin