Morskan and the unidentified “regional dialect” in PK
I’m planning to make some audio recordings in Morskan and am trying to do my due diligence to make sure that I’m pronouncing things as authentically as possible. With that in mind, I have some questions about Morskan: 1. Syllable-initial {tlh} is supposed to become a sound that’s described as being similar to {ghl}: is this a {gh} leading into a {l} (i.e., /ɣl/), or is it actually a voiced lateral fricative like /ɮ/? Or something else? 2. Do we have any more examples of uniquely Morskan lexicon besides {qurbuSwI'}? (The notes in boQwI' for this word suggest that it’s based on the name of an architect, but I see it just as a portmanteau of {qur buSwI'}. I suppose it could be both.) 3. (This will be very long, sorry…) Earlier when discussing differences between Morskan and Standard Klingon I mentioned an unnamed “regional dialect” from one of the audio tapes that I thought resembled Morskan. I incorrectly remembered this as being on Conversational Klingon; it turns out it was on Power Klingon. I listened to the relevant segment again to compare it to what we know about Morskan and wanted to share my observations and ask some questions. First, a transcription of the example sentences from Power Klingon (transcriptions of the regional dialect are based on how I heard the sentences; please chime in if you hear something different): Federation Standard: “Have you seen my phaser?” Regional Dialect: {PuhIchwij DalegPu} Standard Dialect: {pu'HIchwIj Daleghpu'} (This example appears to contain an error: either the sentence should be “You have seen my phaser” in Federation Standard, or it’s missing an interrogative marker {-'a'} in both the regional and standard dialects, or it’s meant to illustrate that the interrogative marker {-'a'} is not necessary in the regional dialect, and it was accidentally omitted in the standard dialect version as well) Federation Standard: “I want to eat meat.” Regional Dialect: {haDba vISoP vIne} Standard Dialect: {Ha'DIbaH vISop vIneH} Federation Standard: “What food is this?” Regional Dialect: {Sojvets 'o nuq} Standard Dialect: {Sojvetlh 'oH nuq'e'} In the examples above, {P} represents a sound that seemed like an unaspirated /p/ to me, but sounded almost like /b/ in some places, and {i} represents a higher, more fronted {I} (i.e., /i/). {g} is a stop rather than a fricative like {gh}. Next, here is what I hear for the Morskan watchman’s lines from the “Uhura speaks Klingon” scene from Star Trek VI (the transcription is based on my own hearing again, and the standard dialect reconstruction is based on my own guesswork.) {morsqi qey} - {??? ???} {Dujvets 'o nuq rin} - {Dujvetlh 'oH nuq'e' rIn} {nuqDaq roS rin} - {nuqDaq (bo)ghoS rIn} {'omey SuqHo'} - {ghewmey (tI)SuqQo'} Once again, {i} is a different sound than {I}. {nuqDaq roS} might have been something more like {nuqda groS} (where {d} is not retroflex and {g} is a voiced velar stop), and I’m not totally sure about the final glottal stop in the word I’ve transcribed as {SuqHo'}, as it wasn’t particular strongly enunciated, if it was there. The fricative {H} in {SuqHo'} sounded a little more pharyngeal than velar to me, but it was definitely non-glottal. The prefixes in parentheses are the ones that would make sense to use if the sentences weren’t clipped in addition to being in dialect. Presumably, the dialog from Star Trek VI was in Morskan, since the watchman identifies the listening post as “Morska” (according to the English subtitles). However, it has a few features that aren’t described in KGT’s description of the Morskan dialect. The “regional dialect” in PK has many similarities to Morskan, and there’s no reason to believe that it is indeed Morskan, but I’m not aware of any other dialects that had been shown on screen or described, at the time PK was recorded, besides Morskan. If it is indeed Morskan, there are some additional features that aren’t described in KGT. Features that the Star Trek VI dialect has in common with Morskan as described in KGT: * {tlh} becomes {ts} in syllable-final position * {H} is elided in syllable-final position * {-'e'} is not required on the noun following the pronoun in pronoun-copula “to be” sentences * {Q} becomes {H} in syllable-initial position Features that the PK dialect has in common with Morskan as described in KGT: * {H} becomes {h} syllable-initially * {H} is elided syllable-finally * {tlh} becomes {ts} in syllable-final position * {-'e'} is not required on the noun following the pronoun in pronoun-copula “to be” sentences Features of the ST VI dialect that don’t occur in the KGT Morskan description: * {I} is pronounced like {i} * {gh} changes to another sound syllable-initially (it changes to two different sounds in two different words; insufficient data to discern a pattern) * The diphthong {ew} sounds more like {o} Features of the PK dialect that don’t occur in the KGT Morskan description: * {p} appears to be unaspirated; other stops such as {t} may be as well (though it would be more typical of Dr. Okrand to make this another phonetic asymmetry) * Syllable-final {'} appears to be elided; in fact, Dr. Okrand makes a point to call this difference out in the tape * {I} sounds like {i} sometimes, though not consistently, so the one time it does sound this way might just be a fluke * {gh} appears to become a stop syllable-finally * It appears to be possible to elide some vowels in some circumstances (e.g. {haDba} - where did the {I} go?) Some of all of the differences that fall outside of how Morskan is described in KGT could be limited to specific words, as opposed to being broader patterns. But if we are to assume that the ST VI dialect and perhaps even the PK dialect is Morskan, do we have any other information to explain these additional differences from Standard Klingon that aren’t described in KGT? Is there any description or example of the Morskan dialect outside of KGT?
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:24 AM Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
2. Do we have any more examples of uniquely Morskan lexicon besides {qurbuSwI'}? (The notes in boQwI' for this word suggest that it’s based on the name of an architect, but I see it just as a portmanteau of {qur buSwI'}. I suppose it could be both.)
It started as a joke. Lieven asked if there were a word for an "architect", and joked that his Morskan friend had told him {qurbuSwI'}, which is a pun based on the name of a famous architect, Le Corbusier. [I had asked in advance what Klingons would use to describe an “architect”,
which is my job. I suggested the word *qurbuSwI’*, which my Morskan friend told me] Lieven [...] I asked him about Morskan *qurbuSwI’*. He said he wasn’t really all that familiar with Morskan, but then he thought about it a little more and said he did know a word Qur that might be related, though it was difficult to translate. The best he could come up with was “structure” or “organization.” He was quick to point out that this did not mean “structure” like a building is a structure, nor did it mean “organization” like an organization of people or even an organization of states. It means the way things fit together or the arrangement of the parts of something bigger. He said it could be used for “anatomy” when talking about animals. Though he looked a little pained when I suggested it, he agreed that one could say that Scotty understood the Qur of the Enterprise.
The last paragraph feels like Okrand going along with the joke, rather than rejecting {qurbuSwI'} outright, so {qurbuSwI'} is sort-of taken as canonical Morskan by some people. In the examples above, {P} represents a sound that seemed like an
unaspirated /p/ to me, but sounded almost like /b/ in some places, and {i} represents a higher, more fronted {I} (i.e., /i/).
The unaspirated {p} might not be an intentional aspect of the dialect. Native English speakers often don't aspirate P in non-initial positions, and aspiration is not a feature in English phonology, so it's possible the speaker simply pronounced it like a regular English p. Also, TKD mentions that in some uncertain situations, {I} can be pronounced like /i/ even in {ta' Hol}, which I'm guessing is a cover for some ST3 actors saying /i/ instead of {I}. Perhaps {rin} when used in radio transmissions is one such case, so it's not necessarily exclusive to Morskan.
On May 14, 2019, at 00:09, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
The last paragraph feels like Okrand going along with the joke, rather than rejecting {qurbuSwI'} outright, so {qurbuSwI'} is sort-of taken as canonical Morskan by some people.
Ah, that text makes it clear that {Qur} (which I had misremembered as {qur} came from {qurbuSwI'}, and not the other way around. Interesting; thanks.
The unaspirated {p} might not be an intentional aspect of the dialect. Native English speakers often don't aspirate P in non-initial positions, and aspiration is not a feature in English phonology, so it's possible the speaker simply pronounced it like a regular English p.
Except that the usual context in which English loses aspiration on aspirate stops (when they are part of a consonant cluster with an initial /s/) is illegal in Klingon phonology. But maybe Morskan allows more types of consonant clusters than standard Klingon does, if “Morska” is a semi-faithful rendition of what Morskans call their home. The speaker was Dr. Okrand himself, and the lack of aspiration was systematic enough that it seemed quite intentional. (FWIW at least one of the apparently non-aspirated /p/ sounds might have been a /b/, but it’s a little hard to tell.)
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:51 AM Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
Except that the usual context in which English loses aspiration on aspirate stops (when they are part of a consonant cluster with an initial /s/) is illegal in Klingon phonology. But maybe Morskan allows more types of consonant clusters than standard Klingon does, if “Morska” is a semi-faithful rendition of what Morskans call their home. The speaker was Dr. Okrand himself, and the lack of aspiration was systematic enough that it seemed quite intentional. (FWIW at least one of the apparently non-aspirated /p/ sounds might have been a /b/, but it’s a little hard to tell.)
Word-final stops are also frequently unaspirated in English, though not as consistently as they are in consonant clusters with /p/. Does Dr. Okrand usually aspirate his word-final /p/s? Since aspiration isn't phonemic in either English or Klingon, it's possible he just pronounced the letter how he was used to instead of strictly going by-the-book. IIRC, he also doesn't consistently trill or roll his {r}s. (In other words, since some of the sounds of Klingon are pretty close to, but not exactly the same as, sounds in English, it's possible Okrand sometimes reverts to English pronuncation now and then.) I’ve had the same thought. I think you’ve said that before, too, so I’m not
sure whether I had the thought independently or because of you. I have also thought it quite likely that this particular phonetic change is also the reason they’re called “Klingons”, if other spacefaring races first made contact with Klingons living in the outskirts of the empire.
I've also had similar thoughts on the origin of "gladst". *jaSHa' Qubba' yabDu' Dun. * That's also an interesting point about the word "Klingon" itself. (Or perhaps the first Klingons encountered by the Federation were Klingonaase speakers being expelled to the fringes...)
On May 14, 2019, at 10:21, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
Word-final stops are also frequently unaspirated in English, though not as consistently as they are in consonant clusters with /p/. Does Dr. Okrand usually aspirate his word-final /p/s?
In the {haDba vISoP vIne} example, Dr. Okrand very clearly and emphatically aspirates the word-final {p} when delivering the corresponding {Ha'DIbaH vISop vIneH} phrase in Standard Klingon. I’ve not listened carefully enough to Dr. Okrand’s other performances of Klingon speech to know how consistent he is in aspirating /p/ in general, but it does seem more likely than not, to me, that the lack of aspiration was an intentional difference in this particular example and in {PuhIchwij DalegPu}, which features apparently non-aspirate /p/ in both word and syllable-initial positions. FWIW, the aspiration is again very clearly heard in the corresponding Standard Dialect {pu'HIchwIj Daleghpu'} example.
On 5/14/2019 10:51 AM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
The speaker was Dr. Okrand himself, and the lack of aspiration was systematic enough that it seemed quite intentional. (FWIW at least one of the apparently non-aspirated /p/ sounds might have been a /b/, but it’s a little hard to tell.)
I would not take Okrand's pronunciation of dialectical speech in /Power Klingon /too seriously. It was recorded before the publication of KGT. It was trying to make the dialectical speech sound silly and wimpy compared to the standard dialect. The tape is a very tongue-in-cheek rendition of a traveler's audiotape, and no dialect-native Klingon appeared to be consulted for it. Non-aspirated *p* in Morskan? Maybe, but you'd need more than /Power Klingon/ to conclude that. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On May 14, 2019, at 10:38, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
Non-aspirated p in Morskan? Maybe, but you'd need more than Power Klingon to conclude that.
Agreed completely. It’s not even clear that the PK “regional dialect” is indeed Morskan. It bears a large number of similarities to Morskan, so it wouldn’t be crazy to think that it is, but it wouldn’t be crazy to think that it isn’t, either. I was just curious about whether Morskan has known features beyond what’s described in KGT, to which I strongly suspect the answer is “no”. I think De'vID’s point that there could be multiple “Morskan” dialects is probably the best explanation for the differences we observe between the KGT explanation of Morskan and the ST VI and PK dialect performances. (Assuming that both of those are indeed Morskan, which might not necessarily be the case, even on Morska.)
On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 21:24, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
Some of all of the differences that fall outside of how Morskan is described in KGT could be limited to specific words, as opposed to being broader patterns. But if we are to assume that the ST VI dialect and perhaps even the PK dialect is Morskan, do we have any other information to explain these additional differences from Standard Klingon that aren’t described in KGT? Is there any description or example of the Morskan dialect outside of KGT?
Maybe there's more than one Morskan dialect? It's like saying "British English". Which one? Also, and this is the answer to a different question than you asked, but {tlhatlh} "gladst" is never explicitly labeled a Morskan word in KGT, and yet must be in a closely-related dialect. It would be pronounced {ghlats} in Morskan, which is close enough to "gladst". -- De'vID
On May 14, 2019, at 01:02, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe there's more than one Morskan dialect? It's like saying "British English". Which one?
That’s a good point. Perhaps the description in KGT applies to “common Morskan” or whatever dialect is spoken in Morska’s political or cultural capital. Or it is a synthesis or summary of the most common and distinguishing features of the Morskan family of regional dialects. This is complete speculation, but my own guess is that the “regional dialect” in PK was based on Dr. Okrand’s personal notes from when he developed Morskan for ST VI. With the exception of the apparent dropping of syllable-final {qaghwI'} none of the other apparent features of the PK dialect which don’t appear in the ST VI scene would have had an opportunity to be presented in that scene. Then a few years later when it came time to commit a description of Morskan to print in KGT, he backpedaled on a few of the changes or lost or forgot about his notes. In particular, if dropping syllable-final {qaghwI'} was intended to be a feature, it would have caused confusion between several common verbal suffixes like {-moH}, {-mo'}, {ta'}, and {-taH}, so it would have made sense to backpedal on that.
Also, and this is the answer to a different question than you asked, but {tlhatlh} "gladst" is never explicitly labeled a Morskan word in KGT, and yet must be in a closely-related dialect. It would be pronounced {ghlats} in Morskan, which is close enough to "gladst".
I’ve had the same thought. I think you’ve said that before, too, so I’m not sure whether I had the thought independently or because of you. I have also thought it quite likely that this particular phonetic change is also the reason they’re called “Klingons”, if other spacefaring races first made contact with Klingons living in the outskirts of the empire.
When I joined the KLI back when it was forming, during the year before qep’a’ wa’DIch, I thought I was joining an elite corps of nerds who boldly go where no one has gone (or would ever want to have gone) before, and I ranked myself among the boldest. Now, I feel outclassed. All those hours I poured into that first Word .doc file that became the AKD (the Annotated Klingon Dictionary), a copy of which is probably still on Okrand’s bookshelf somewhere, disintegrating… and the hours that I spent entering that same data into my Palm Pilot, writing it into that little touch screen with a stylus using that strange alphabet I had to learn to enter stuff into the Pilot… and the hours I spent putting that same (continually expanded) dictionary into MS Access, and then Excel, and then Bento, and finally into Tap Forms before deciding that boQwI’ is really nice and maybe I don’t have to keep doing this for the rest of my life… All the hours creating and updating the online New Words List (before eventually handing it over to other capable hands)... All the hours spent rehearsing for the Klingon Barbershop Quartet at qep’a’… for the performance of “Bring out Yer Dead!”… for the death scene in the Klingon Hamlet… All the hours on this list, arguing about arcane points of Klingon grammar as BG and then as one of the former BGs… Even after bathing in the glory of being recognized as one of the friends of Maltz... I am humbled. Good luck with your Morskan project. Maybe someday, you’ll even restore Hamlet to its original Morscan manuscript… You are clearly going where I have never gone before. Frankly, I never even THOUGHT of going there. When I tell normal people about my odd hobby of speaking Klingon, they ask me why I’ve learned a language that “nobody speaks”. Well, you’ve managed to hollow out an area of expertise that involves even fewer speakers. Of course, I guess the next emperor could be Morscan… You might be on the cutting edge. You could be The One the rest of us turn to when the future brings change. I salute you. I also suspect that Okrand will once again stand in awe of yet another creative outgrowth of his accidental language that he never anticipated. He’s often said that he feels an enormous responsibility and a need to be very careful what he says, because, well, one careless comment, and something like this might happen. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On May 14, 2019, at 12:24 AM, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
I’m planning to make some audio recordings in Morskan and am trying to do my due diligence to make sure that I’m pronouncing things as authentically as possible. With that in mind, I have some questions about Morskan:
1. Syllable-initial {tlh} is supposed to become a sound that’s described as being similar to {ghl}: is this a {gh} leading into a {l} (i.e., /ɣl/), or is it actually a voiced lateral fricative like /ɮ/? Or something else?
2. Do we have any more examples of uniquely Morskan lexicon besides {qurbuSwI'}? (The notes in boQwI' for this word suggest that it’s based on the name of an architect, but I see it just as a portmanteau of {qur buSwI'}. I suppose it could be both.)
3. (This will be very long, sorry…) Earlier when discussing differences between Morskan and Standard Klingon I mentioned an unnamed “regional dialect” from one of the audio tapes that I thought resembled Morskan. I incorrectly remembered this as being on Conversational Klingon; it turns out it was on Power Klingon. I listened to the relevant segment again to compare it to what we know about Morskan and wanted to share my observations and ask some questions.
First, a transcription of the example sentences from Power Klingon (transcriptions of the regional dialect are based on how I heard the sentences; please chime in if you hear something different):
Federation Standard: “Have you seen my phaser?” Regional Dialect: {PuhIchwij DalegPu} Standard Dialect: {pu'HIchwIj Daleghpu'} (This example appears to contain an error: either the sentence should be “You have seen my phaser” in Federation Standard, or it’s missing an interrogative marker {-'a'} in both the regional and standard dialects, or it’s meant to illustrate that the interrogative marker {-'a'} is not necessary in the regional dialect, and it was accidentally omitted in the standard dialect version as well)
Federation Standard: “I want to eat meat.” Regional Dialect: {haDba vISoP vIne} Standard Dialect: {Ha'DIbaH vISop vIneH}
Federation Standard: “What food is this?” Regional Dialect: {Sojvets 'o nuq} Standard Dialect: {Sojvetlh 'oH nuq'e'}
In the examples above, {P} represents a sound that seemed like an unaspirated /p/ to me, but sounded almost like /b/ in some places, and {i} represents a higher, more fronted {I} (i.e., /i/). {g} is a stop rather than a fricative like {gh}.
Next, here is what I hear for the Morskan watchman’s lines from the “Uhura speaks Klingon” scene from Star Trek VI (the transcription is based on my own hearing again, and the standard dialect reconstruction is based on my own guesswork.)
{morsqi qey} - {??? ???} {Dujvets 'o nuq rin} - {Dujvetlh 'oH nuq'e' rIn} {nuqDaq roS rin} - {nuqDaq (bo)ghoS rIn} {'omey SuqHo'} - {ghewmey (tI)SuqQo'}
Once again, {i} is a different sound than {I}. {nuqDaq roS} might have been something more like {nuqda groS} (where {d} is not retroflex and {g} is a voiced velar stop), and I’m not totally sure about the final glottal stop in the word I’ve transcribed as {SuqHo'}, as it wasn’t particular strongly enunciated, if it was there. The fricative {H} in {SuqHo'} sounded a little more pharyngeal than velar to me, but it was definitely non-glottal. The prefixes in parentheses are the ones that would make sense to use if the sentences weren’t clipped in addition to being in dialect.
Presumably, the dialog from Star Trek VI was in Morskan, since the watchman identifies the listening post as “Morska” (according to the English subtitles). However, it has a few features that aren’t described in KGT’s description of the Morskan dialect.
The “regional dialect” in PK has many similarities to Morskan, and there’s no reason to believe that it is indeed Morskan, but I’m not aware of any other dialects that had been shown on screen or described, at the time PK was recorded, besides Morskan. If it is indeed Morskan, there are some additional features that aren’t described in KGT.
Features that the Star Trek VI dialect has in common with Morskan as described in KGT:
* {tlh} becomes {ts} in syllable-final position * {H} is elided in syllable-final position * {-'e'} is not required on the noun following the pronoun in pronoun-copula “to be” sentences * {Q} becomes {H} in syllable-initial position
Features that the PK dialect has in common with Morskan as described in KGT:
* {H} becomes {h} syllable-initially * {H} is elided syllable-finally * {tlh} becomes {ts} in syllable-final position * {-'e'} is not required on the noun following the pronoun in pronoun-copula “to be” sentences
Features of the ST VI dialect that don’t occur in the KGT Morskan description:
* {I} is pronounced like {i} * {gh} changes to another sound syllable-initially (it changes to two different sounds in two different words; insufficient data to discern a pattern) * The diphthong {ew} sounds more like {o}
Features of the PK dialect that don’t occur in the KGT Morskan description:
* {p} appears to be unaspirated; other stops such as {t} may be as well (though it would be more typical of Dr. Okrand to make this another phonetic asymmetry) * Syllable-final {'} appears to be elided; in fact, Dr. Okrand makes a point to call this difference out in the tape * {I} sounds like {i} sometimes, though not consistently, so the one time it does sound this way might just be a fluke * {gh} appears to become a stop syllable-finally * It appears to be possible to elide some vowels in some circumstances (e.g. {haDba} - where did the {I} go?)
Some of all of the differences that fall outside of how Morskan is described in KGT could be limited to specific words, as opposed to being broader patterns. But if we are to assume that the ST VI dialect and perhaps even the PK dialect is Morskan, do we have any other information to explain these additional differences from Standard Klingon that aren’t described in KGT? Is there any description or example of the Morskan dialect outside of KGT? _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
charghwI':
When I tell normal people about my odd hobby of speaking Klingon, they ask me why I’ve learned a language that “nobody speaks”.
jaSHa', mugheltaHvIS veQ Humanpu', chaHvaD jIjatlh, Sa'Hutraj qoDDaq pe'vIl 'InSepraj yIghoS 'ej pengagh'egh.. when human trash ask me the same, I reply by saying, thrust your d***s up your a***s and go f*** yourselves.. ~ m. qunen'oS
On 5/14/2019 9:53 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
charghwI':
When I tell normal people about my odd hobby of speaking Klingon, they ask me why I’ve learned a language that “nobody speaks”. jaSHa', mugheltaHvIS veQ Humanpu', chaHvaD jIjatlh, Sa'Hutraj qoDDaq pe'vIl 'InSepraj yIghoS 'ej pengagh'egh..
rut 'Il ghelwI'. chaq chaHvaD bImayHa'. loQ yIgharchoH. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
rut 'Il ghelwI'. chaq chaHvaD bImayHa'. loQ yIgharchoH.
bIlugh, 'amerI'qa' jupwI'.. you're right my american friend.. Do'Ha', motlh, mugheltaHvIS nuvpu', qatlh Hol chenmoHlu'pu'bogh Daghoj ?, wIvvam luvaqbej. 'e' vIjembej. bI'reS, jIjotlaHtaH.. 'e' vIchav. 'a tagha' jIpuQpu'.. Unfortunately, usually, while people are asking me, why do you learn a constructed language ?, I realize that they are actually mocking that choice.. At first I managed to remaln calm, but eventually I was fed up.. ~ m. qunen'oS keep calm and learn klingon
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:18 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Unfortunately, usually, while people are asking me, why do you learn a constructed language ?, I realize that they are actually mocking that choice.. At first I managed to remaln calm, but eventually I was fed up..
*ghu'lIjvaD mItchu'bogh tera' vIttlhegh tIQ tu'lu'. <muS muSwI'pu'.>*
jIHvaD qay’be’. jIvtaH qoHpu’ ‘e’ vIpIH. ghIlab ghewmey rur. tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI’pu' vISovbogh law’ law’ baratngan Hol jatlhwI’pu’ vISovbogh law’ puS. law’ba' baratnganpu’ ‘e’ vISov. jIjatlhbe’ <<baratngan Hol jatlhwI’ vISovbe’mo’, baratngan Hol jatlh pagh.>> jatlh qoHpu’ <<(tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI’pu’ vISovbe’mo’) tlhIngan Hol jatlh pagh>>. Interestingly, if you say {tlhIngan Hol jatlh pagh} in Klingon, you are technically right, since we know that the one guy in the Universe named {pagh} does, in fact, speak Klingon, but when you say it in English, you are wrong. His name is not “nobody”. It’s {pagh}. Language colors thoughts. I think in a different color when I speak Klingon. By speaking Klingon, I notice the color I’m immersed in when I speak English. If I didn’t speak Klingon, I wouldn’t notice the color of English, and I’d ignorantly think that’s the only color there is. I’d believe that the thoughts I have in English are the only thoughts I could have. Learning ASL gives me yet another color through which to view the world. Communication is only a portion of the reason one should learn a language. It also serves to expand the mind, and to step closer to gaining the ability to think beyond words, since speaking only one language tends to invisibly limit the framework of your thoughts. The immediate, preconscious translation of thoughts into words begins to reshape the idea between that deeper consciousness and the one that talks. Out of habit, thoughts begin to fall into the ruts cut by earlier spoken ideas, until the dark areas between this limited vocabulary of ideas become invisible and unexplorable, as if they didn’t exist. Mathematics and music are impossible to create by those who never learn those languages. There are philosophies and sciences that we shall never know, if we insist on the dominance of a single language, so that everyone can communicate with anyone (ignoring the Deaf, of course). I have deep respect for those among us who venture into many languages. I wish I had the time and resources to learn more than I am likely to ever learn. If I had been rich enough to not have to work, I’d know more languages now than I do. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On May 14, 2019, at 10:00 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 5/14/2019 9:53 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
charghwI':
When I tell normal people about my odd hobby of speaking Klingon, they ask me why I’ve learned a language that “nobody speaks”. jaSHa', mugheltaHvIS veQ Humanpu', chaHvaD jIjatlh, Sa'Hutraj qoDDaq pe'vIl 'InSepraj yIghoS 'ej pengagh'egh.. rut 'Il ghelwI'. chaq chaHvaD bImayHa'. loQ yIgharchoH.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On May 14, 2019, at 08:40, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
You are clearly going where I have never gone before. Frankly, I never even THOUGHT of going there.
Your message flatters me, but honestly I don’t think learning Morskan is *that* wild if an endeavor if one is already learning standard Klingon. There aren’t major lexical differences (that we know of) and only one known, and relatively tame, grammatical difference. Anybody who reads the brief description of Morskan in KGT should have little trouble composing or understanding text in that dialect, provided they’re already somewhat familiar with the standard one. Now if you want to know about a Klingon language variant that *really* has a small population of speakers, I’m aware of one (not created by Dr. Okrand and obviously not canonical) with a lexicon, grammar, and phonology that is familiar enough that most skilled Klingonists ought to be able to understand it reasonably well with a fairly short period of adjustment, but different enough that I expect that it would be a challenge to extract meaning from text composed in this language without knowing the rules up front. Not an impossible challenge, but a challenge nevertheless. I’ll refrain from describing it in more detail, as the person who devised this language has not shared any details about it in public, and may have done so out of minor embarrassment over how incredibly geeky it is. Anyway, in case you’re curious, the Morskan project is a restoration of the original Morskan lyrics for some well known songs from a particular Earth musical genre. It seemed appropriate to do them in a regional dialect. Here’s an example of one of the songs; I will leave the translation to the standard dialect and identification of the corresponding Terran song as an exercise to the reader: pIch ghaj mungwIj SeQ lopno'lIj vIqaghpu'DI' DaS Hop vItuQ SovwI' Hav jI pawwI' Hav jI pa' chotu' 'e' Dahonmo' qanuQ gha vImer 'e' vItu' vIghIj 'e' 'agh mInDu' 'Iw hIq hIvje' vIglhap 'ej vIpep ghIq SovaD jIjats Da chaq banglI' gha lats 'ach not ghu'vammo' jIbep Daq quvha'Daq chata 'op jupwI' pa' SengmeywIj hata hIq Seng bI'- chu'mo' je hIq haw' vaj pa' jIbaw' loQ nugh chut vIlobha' jI vaj Da tach vImaSbogh vIghoSlI' Daq quvha'Daq chata 'op jupwI' jImujlaw'mo' jIghlIj Daqvam 'obe' DaqwIj ghu' vISIQpu' 'ej vISIQqa' qay'be'ba' ghu'vam vaj jIjats maj ram ghIq lojmItDaq jIDev'eghqangba' bong Hughhomvam vIqaSmopu' vaj Hap ghlam wa' rep pIq baw'chola yab ngugh jI jen law' chalqachlIj jen law' chalqachvets chIS DaDab Daq quvha'Daq chata 'op jupwI' pa' SengmeywIj hata hIq Seng bI'- chu'mo' je hIq haw' vaj pa' jIbaw' loQ nugh chut vIlobha' jI vaj Da tach vImaSbogh vIghoSlI' Daq quvha'Daq chata 'op jupwI'
On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 11:25 AM Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
I’ll refrain from describing it in more detail, as the person who devised this language has not shared any details about it in public, and may have done so out of minor embarrassment over how incredibly geeky it is.
*chatlh! vIlqu'bej tlhIngan Hol Sarmey 'oghta'ghach, 'ej nIDnIS Hoch.*
Anyway, in case you’re curious, the Morskan project is a restoration of the original Morskan lyrics for some well known songs from a particular Earth musical genre. It seemed appropriate to do them in a regional dialect. Here’s an example of one of the songs; I will leave the translation to the standard dialect and identification of the corresponding Terran song as an exercise to the reader:
*maj! Hatlh QoQ vI'Ijbe', vaj bomvetlh vIngu'meH, loQ nI'bogh poH vIpoQ.*
participants (6)
-
Daniel Dadap -
De'vID -
mayqel qunen'oS -
nIqolay Q -
SuStel -
Will Martin