I haven’t been writing much in Klingon for a long time. My problem is that when I think in Klingon, I don’t tend to say anything if I don’t have anything important to say. Of course, all who know me know that in English, I face no such barrier. Anyway, I thought I’d try to write a song in Klingon, but I realized that I’m just not familiar enough with what is appropriate for a Klingon song, so I did some research. As it happens, I have stumbled across what appears to be an ancient Klingon song’s original lyrics. Apparently, more recently, alternative lyrics were applied to this song. I’ve seen references to it, though I haven’t tracked it down yet, though I think I’ve heard Krankor do an English version of the newer lyrics. My attempts to track down the tune have been thwarted by an apparent ban on the melody at all leSpal ngevmeH malja’ qachmey. Anyway, for what it’s worth, here’s what I found: ‘ej muSIvmoHbejtaH qol’om ‘oH gho-onbo-ogh Hoch’e’ ‘e’ Harchu’ ja-aw ghaHbogh be’’e’ ‘ej QI’tu’ letlh je-e’taH. pawDI’ jaw’vam ngaQchu-u’-chugh ma-alja’ qa-ach, ngoQDaj’a’ SuqlaHbe-ej ‘e’ So-ovbej. ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’, ‘u’, ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘ej QI’tu’ ghoSbogh le-etlh je’law’taH. reDDaq vepHey tu-u’lu’, ‘ach vo-oqchu’ ne-eH rut cha’ qech chuplaHmo-o’ wa’ mu-u’. bIQtIqHom retlhDaq SorDaq bomtaH qa-anra-aD. rut Hoch buSHachmaj no-obHa’lu-u’. [This last verb was apparently mistranslated into English.] bISov. tIng ’ev vIghantaHDI-I’ jItIwchoH net ghu-ur ‘ej jItlheD neHmo’ qa’wIj nongchoHbej. Sormey Hay tlhIch rutlhme-ey vIlegh ‘e’ vI-Ija-al bejbogh nu-uvpu’ QI-Ichmey je-e. qajal. tlhuplu’. <<tugh bom wIwIvchugh mameqmeH nu-uDe-ev Dov’agh. taHwI’pu’vaD choH jaj chu-u’ ‘ej Haghqu’ta-aHmo-o’ nuvlaw’pu-u-u’ la-aw’ nge-em’a’ Hoch lute-ebchu’ ya-a’rIS>> Haghlu’ghach Daqaw’a’? toH, HIja’, HISlaH, lu’. ‘ej muSIvmoHbejtaH. tIlIjDaq chuSlu’chugh, yIjot. yIghumbe’lu-u’. maqtagh ta’vaD Say’moHlu’ neH. cha’vo’ wa’ He DawIvnISbej ‘e’ So-ov Ho-och. HelIj DachoHmeH ratlh poH yap. tlhon’a’meyvo’ Huyqu’lu’ta-aH ‘ej mevlu’Qo-o’. <<HImuv!>> jatlh Dov’agh chu’wI’’a’. jaw’oy, SuSbogh SuS DaQoylaH’a’? ‘ej DaSov’a’? tlhuptaHbogh SuSDaq letlhlIj ‘oH[taH]. ‘ej HemajDaq malengtaHvIS. QIbmaj woch law’ qa’maj woch puS. pa’ yIt jaw’e’ wISovchu’bogh. tamghay chIS chu’ ‘ej ‘aghchu’ neH. qol’om mojmeH Hoch Ho’DoS ‘agh. ‘ej bI’Ijchu’chugh vaj DaQoy. bom’a’ Dagho-ovchoHlaHchu’. wa’ mojDI’ Hoch, Hoch mojDI’ wa-a’ nagh’a’ Damoj ‘ach not bIron. toH. HIja’. ‘ej QI’tu-u’ ghoSbogh le-e-etlh je’law’taH. pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
Apologies. My Klingon spell checker apparently changed {jawoy} to {jaw’oy} and I didn’t catch it upon review. [sigh]
On Oct 30, 2021, at 3:45 PM, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
I haven’t been writing much in Klingon for a long time. My problem is that when I think in Klingon, I don’t tend to say anything if I don’t have anything important to say. Of course, all who know me know that in English, I face no such barrier.
Anyway, I thought I’d try to write a song in Klingon, but I realized that I’m just not familiar enough with what is appropriate for a Klingon song, so I did some research.
As it happens, I have stumbled across what appears to be an ancient Klingon song’s original lyrics. Apparently, more recently, alternative lyrics were applied to this song. I’ve seen references to it, though I haven’t tracked it down yet, though I think I’ve heard Krankor do an English version of the newer lyrics.
My attempts to track down the tune have been thwarted by an apparent ban on the melody at all leSpal ngevmeH malja’ qachmey.
Anyway, for what it’s worth, here’s what I found:
‘ej muSIvmoHbejtaH
qol’om ‘oH gho-onbo-ogh Hoch’e’ ‘e’ Harchu’ ja-aw ghaHbogh be’’e’ ‘ej QI’tu’ letlh je-e’taH. pawDI’ jaw’vam ngaQchu-u’-chugh ma-alja’ qa-ach, ngoQDaj’a’ SuqlaHbe-ej ‘e’ So-ovbej. ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’, ‘u’, ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘ej QI’tu’ ghoSbogh le-etlh je’law’taH.
reDDaq vepHey tu-u’lu’, ‘ach vo-oqchu’ ne-eH rut cha’ qech chuplaHmo-o’ wa’ mu-u’. bIQtIqHom retlhDaq SorDaq bomtaH qa-anra-aD. rut Hoch buSHachmaj no-obHa’lu-u’. [This last verb was apparently mistranslated into English.] bISov.
tIng ’ev vIghantaHDI-I’ jItIwchoH net ghu-ur ‘ej jItlheD neHmo’ qa’wIj nongchoHbej. Sormey Hay tlhIch rutlhme-ey vIlegh ‘e’ vI-Ija-al bejbogh nu-uvpu’ QI-Ichmey je-e. qajal.
tlhuplu’. <<tugh bom wIwIvchugh mameqmeH nu-uDe-ev Dov’agh. taHwI’pu’vaD choH jaj chu-u’ ‘ej Haghqu’ta-aHmo-o’ nuvlaw’pu-u-u’ la-aw’ nge-em’a’ Hoch lute-ebchu’ ya-a’rIS>> Haghlu’ghach Daqaw’a’?
toH, HIja’, HISlaH, lu’.
‘ej muSIvmoHbejtaH. tIlIjDaq chuSlu’chugh, yIjot. yIghumbe’lu-u’. maqtagh ta’vaD Say’moHlu’ neH. cha’vo’ wa’ He DawIvnISbej ‘e’ So-ov Ho-och. HelIj DachoHmeH ratlh poH yap.
tlhon’a’meyvo’ Huyqu’lu’ta-aH ‘ej mevlu’Qo-o’. <<HImuv!>> jatlh Dov’agh chu’wI’’a’. jaw’oy, SuSbogh SuS DaQoylaH’a’? ‘ej DaSov’a’? tlhuptaHbogh SuSDaq letlhlIj ‘oH[taH].
‘ej HemajDaq malengtaHvIS. QIbmaj woch law’ qa’maj woch puS. pa’ yIt jaw’e’ wISovchu’bogh. tamghay chIS chu’ ‘ej ‘aghchu’ neH. qol’om mojmeH Hoch Ho’DoS ‘agh.
‘ej bI’Ijchu’chugh vaj DaQoy. bom’a’ Dagho-ovchoHlaHchu’. wa’ mojDI’ Hoch, Hoch mojDI’ wa-a’ nagh’a’ Damoj ‘ach not bIron. toH. HIja’.
‘ej QI’tu-u’ ghoSbogh le-e-etlh je’law’taH.
pItlh
charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 10/30/2021 3:45 PM, Will Martin wrote:
My attempts to track down the tune have been thwarted by an apparent ban on the melody at all leSpal ngevmeH malja’ qachmey.
ONLY my having watched /Wayne's World/ many years ago has let me understand what you're trying to do here.
Anyway, for what it’s worth, here’s what I found: * * *‘ej muSIvmoHbejtaH*
qol’om ‘oH gho-onbo-ogh Hoch’e’ ‘e’ Harchu’ ja-aw ghaHbogh be’’e’ ‘ej QI’tu’ letlh je-e’taH.
Hm. Melisma AND enjambment in an effort to get the meter to work. I think when you see this, you need to compromise on either meter or meaning to get an aesthetically pleasing song translation.
pawDI’ jaw’vam ngaQchu-u’-chugh ma-alja’ qa-ach,
I think you meant *jawvam.*
ngoQDaj’a’ SuqlaHbe-ej ‘e’ So-ovbej.
I think you meant *ngoQ'a'Daj. *Does it really deserve to be a *ngoQ'a'?* I'd translate that as something like /ultimate objective./ I guess you're filling in extra syllables.
‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’, ‘u’, ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’
Unless you're trying to invoke the word meaning /universe,/ maybe translate your /oo/'s with *'u.*
‘ej QI’tu’ ghoSbogh le-etlh je’law’taH.
Only *-law'?* You're filling syllables again.
reDDaq vepHey tu-u’lu’, ‘ach vo-oqchu’ ne-eH
*-Hey* appears to be another syllable-filler. I won't mention these anymore. Did you mean *woq* instead of *voq?*
rut cha’ qech chuplaHmo-o’ wa’ mu-u’. bIQtIqHom retlhDaq SorDaq bomtaH qa-anra-aD. rut Hoch buSHachmaj no-obHa’lu-u’. [This last verb was apparently mistranslated into English.] bISov.
tIng ’ev vIghantaHDI-I’ jItIwchoH net ghu-ur
I believe the subject of *ghur* is the thing that increases; you can't say *net ghur.* Also, I don't get the impression that the singer is taking a quick glance into the west, but it looking long at it. *ghan* may not be the right verb here.
‘ej jItlheD neHmo’ qa’wIj nongchoHbej.
I get the impression of *-taH* more than *-choH *from the original.
Sormey Hay tlhIch rutlhme-ey vIlegh ‘e’ vI-Ija-al
I might have said *tlhIch ghomey,* but it's your metaphor.
bejbogh nu-uvpu’ QI-Ichmey je-e. qajal.
tlhuplu’. <<tugh bom wIwIvchugh mameqmeH nu-uDe-ev Dov’agh. taHwI’pu’vaD choH jaj chu-u’
Why *choH* instead of *tagh?*
‘ej Haghqu’ta-aHmo-o’ nuvlaw’pu-u-u’ la-aw’
Is that first *law'* supposed to be there?
nge-em’a’ Hoch lute-ebchu’ ya-a’rIS>> Haghlu’ghach Daqaw’a’?
Ew. No. *Haghlu' 'e' Daqaw'a'?* I know why you did it, but I don't care. Klingon poets do it for poetic reasons; you're doing it just to do it.
toH, HIja’, HISlaH, lu’.
Clever. Poetically kind of ridiculous, but still clever.
‘ej muSIvmoHbejtaH. tIlIjDaq chuSlu’chugh, yIjot. yIghumbe’lu-u’.
You might use *lav* instead of *tI.* And we've discussed *ghum* elsewhere.
maqtagh ta’vaD Say’moHlu’ neH. cha’vo’ wa’ He DawIvnISbej ‘e’ So-ov Ho-och. HelIj DachoHmeH ratlh poH yap.
I see you're beginning to compromise on exact translation to avoid translating idioms.
tlhon’a’meyvo’ Huyqu’lu’ta-aH ‘ej mevlu’Qo-o’.
You know the example in TKD isn't meant to suggest that Klingon poets are obsessed with nostrils, right?
<<HImuv!>> jatlh Dov’agh chu’wI’’a’. jaw’oy, SuSbogh SuS DaQoylaH’a’? ‘ej DaSov’a’?
Ugh. Not *jaw'oy.* Where English has /dear,/ Klingon should just have nothing. We have different words for the noun /wind/ and what it does, /blow./ I'm not sure Klingons would say things like *SuS SuS* /the wind blows,/ because it's just saying the same word over again. I suspect they'd say something like *SuS 'e' DaQoylaH'a'*/Can you hear it blow?/ meaning, sort of, /Can you hear that it is windy? /This is just my guess.
tlhuptaHbogh SuSDaq letlhlIj ‘oH[taH].
‘ej HemajDaq malengtaHvIS. QIbmaj woch law’ qa’maj woch puS. pa’ yIt jaw’e’ wISovchu’bogh. tamghay chIS chu’ ‘ej ‘aghchu’ neH.
*tamghay chIS chu'*/she activates white light./ I don't think *chu'* is the verb you want. Does she perhaps *wew?* Or maybe she is *wov?*
qol’om mojmeH Hoch Ho’DoS ‘agh.
I don't think you've got the right balance of purpose and independent clauses. I'd say *qol'om mojtaH Hoch 'e' 'agh*/She reveals that everything is still becoming gold./ I wonder, though, whether Klingons would understand that as a metaphor for their visual appearance, rather than describing an actual change in composition.
‘ej bI’Ijchu’chugh vaj DaQoy. bom’a’ Dagho-ovchoHlaHchu’. wa’ mojDI’ Hoch, Hoch mojDI’ wa-a’ nagh’a’ Damoj ‘ach not bIron. toH. HIja’.
‘ej QI’tu-u’ ghoSbogh le-e-etlh je’law’taH.
Overall, a good translation. I'd prefer to see it written as prose rather than in verse that fails to preserve the rhymes or stress, or else more effort made to make these elements work. There are far too many syllable-fillers. But the translation itself is quite understandable; there are no obvious spots where understanding becomes difficult because of a too-close translation. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Mostly, I intended this to be a joke. I picked the song because of all the times that I’ve enjoyed hearing Qanqor play “Stairway to Gilligan’s Island”, hence the reference to a more recent version of the lyrics. I did the tortured hyphenation so that I could hear it being sung in my head, fantasizing that other people would enjoy hearing it in their heads. And yes, thanks for catching the Wayne’s World reference. And I leapt at the opportunity to use {tlhonmey}. The project was fun. I thought that maybe a very few people scattered across the globe would laugh along with an extremely inside joke, remembering the sense of humor often exhibited at qep’a’ with Qanqor and Seqram and pagh and Holtej and Qov and you and ghunchu’wI’, etc. But when one aims high, the risk is always that you’ll miss. Sounds like I’m charitable to myself to rate as much as, “Nice try. No cigar.” On Nov 1, 2021, at 11:54 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 10/30/2021 3:45 PM, Will Martin wrote:
My attempts to track down the tune have been thwarted by an apparent ban on the melody at all leSpal ngevmeH malja’ qachmey. ONLY my having watched Wayne's World many years ago has let me understand what you're trying to do here.
Anyway, for what it’s worth, here’s what I found:
‘ej muSIvmoHbejtaH
qol’om ‘oH gho-onbo-ogh Hoch’e’ ‘e’ Harchu’ ja-aw ghaHbogh be’’e’ ‘ej QI’tu’ letlh je-e’taH. Hm. Melisma AND enjambment in an effort to get the meter to work. I think when you see this, you need to compromise on either meter or meaning to get an aesthetically pleasing song translation.
pawDI’ jaw’vam ngaQchu-u’-chugh ma-alja’ qa-ach, I think you meant jawvam.
ngoQDaj’a’ SuqlaHbe-ej ‘e’ So-ovbej. I think you meant ngoQ'a'Daj. Does it really deserve to be a ngoQ'a'? I'd translate that as something like ultimate objective. I guess you're filling in extra syllables.
‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’, ‘u’, ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’ ‘u’ Unless you're trying to invoke the word meaning universe, maybe translate your oo's with 'u.
‘ej QI’tu’ ghoSbogh le-etlh je’law’taH. Only -law'? You're filling syllables again.
reDDaq vepHey tu-u’lu’, ‘ach vo-oqchu’ ne-eH -Hey appears to be another syllable-filler. I won't mention these anymore. Did you mean woq instead of voq?
rut cha’ qech chuplaHmo-o’ wa’ mu-u’. bIQtIqHom retlhDaq SorDaq bomtaH qa-anra-aD. rut Hoch buSHachmaj no-obHa’lu-u’. [This last verb was apparently mistranslated into English.] bISov.
tIng ’ev vIghantaHDI-I’ jItIwchoH net ghu-ur I believe the subject of ghur is the thing that increases; you can't say net ghur. Also, I don't get the impression that the singer is taking a quick glance into the west, but it looking long at it. ghan may not be the right verb here.
‘ej jItlheD neHmo’ qa’wIj nongchoHbej. I get the impression of -taH more than -choH from the original.
Sormey Hay tlhIch rutlhme-ey vIlegh ‘e’ vI-Ija-al I might have said tlhIch ghomey, but it's your metaphor.
bejbogh nu-uvpu’ QI-Ichmey je-e. qajal.
tlhuplu’. <<tugh bom wIwIvchugh mameqmeH nu-uDe-ev Dov’agh. taHwI’pu’vaD choH jaj chu-u’ Why choH instead of tagh?
‘ej Haghqu’ta-aHmo-o’ nuvlaw’pu-u-u’ la-aw’ Is that first law' supposed to be there?
nge-em’a’ Hoch lute-ebchu’ ya-a’rIS>> Haghlu’ghach Daqaw’a’? Ew. No. Haghlu' 'e' Daqaw'a'? I know why you did it, but I don't care. Klingon poets do it for poetic reasons; you're doing it just to do it.
toH, HIja’, HISlaH, lu’. Clever. Poetically kind of ridiculous, but still clever.
‘ej muSIvmoHbejtaH. tIlIjDaq chuSlu’chugh, yIjot. yIghumbe’lu-u’. You might use lav instead of tI. And we've discussed ghum elsewhere.
maqtagh ta’vaD Say’moHlu’ neH. cha’vo’ wa’ He DawIvnISbej ‘e’ So-ov Ho-och. HelIj DachoHmeH ratlh poH yap. I see you're beginning to compromise on exact translation to avoid translating idioms.
tlhon’a’meyvo’ Huyqu’lu’ta-aH ‘ej mevlu’Qo-o’. You know the example in TKD isn't meant to suggest that Klingon poets are obsessed with nostrils, right?
<<HImuv!>> jatlh Dov’agh chu’wI’’a’. jaw’oy, SuSbogh SuS DaQoylaH’a’? ‘ej DaSov’a’? Ugh. Not jaw'oy. Where English has dear, Klingon should just have nothing.
We have different words for the noun wind and what it does, blow. I'm not sure Klingons would say things like SuS SuS the wind blows, because it's just saying the same word over again. I suspect they'd say something like SuS 'e' DaQoylaH'a' Can you hear it blow? meaning, sort of, Can you hear that it is windy? This is just my guess.
tlhuptaHbogh SuSDaq letlhlIj ‘oH[taH].
‘ej HemajDaq malengtaHvIS. QIbmaj woch law’ qa’maj woch puS. pa’ yIt jaw’e’ wISovchu’bogh. tamghay chIS chu’ ‘ej ‘aghchu’ neH. tamghay chIS chu' she activates white light. I don't think chu' is the verb you want. Does she perhaps wew? Or maybe she is wov?
qol’om mojmeH Hoch Ho’DoS ‘agh. I don't think you've got the right balance of purpose and independent clauses. I'd say qol'om mojtaH Hoch 'e' 'agh She reveals that everything is still becoming gold.
I wonder, though, whether Klingons would understand that as a metaphor for their visual appearance, rather than describing an actual change in composition.
‘ej bI’Ijchu’chugh vaj DaQoy. bom’a’ Dagho-ovchoHlaHchu’. wa’ mojDI’ Hoch, Hoch mojDI’ wa-a’ nagh’a’ Damoj ‘ach not bIron. toH. HIja’.
‘ej QI’tu-u’ ghoSbogh le-e-etlh je’law’taH. Overall, a good translation. I'd prefer to see it written as prose rather than in verse that fails to preserve the rhymes or stress, or else more effort made to make these elements work. There are far too many syllable-fillers. But the translation itself is quite understandable; there are no obvious spots where understanding becomes difficult because of a too-close translation.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 11/1/2021 2:02 PM, Will Martin wrote:
But when one aims high, the risk is always that you’ll miss.
Sounds like I’m charitable to myself to rate as much as, “Nice try. No cigar.”
Methinks you didn't read my summary at the end. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
(I know, I don't usually answer here. Fact is, I hardly ever even see posts from this list _except_ ones from SuStel, which for whatever reason aren't sorted into the right mail bucket. But just something to mention.) On 11/1/21 11:54, SuStel wrote:
We have different words for the noun /wind/ and what it does, /blow./ I'm not sure Klingons would say things like *SuS SuS* /the wind blows,/ because it's just saying the same word over again. I suspect they'd say something like *SuS 'e' DaQoylaH'a'*/Can you hear it blow?/ meaning, sort of, /Can you hear that it is windy? /This is just my guess.
Not that there's anything wrong with your suggestion, but do note that "just saying the same word over again" is not all that uncommon or strange-sounding in many languages. You can live your life or die a horrible death; W.S. Gilbert's Judge in _Trial by Jury_ sings of how he "danced a dance," or you can sing a song. OK, these are not _precisely_ the same words, but you could probably find examples like these that have the same word. Heh, we joked about how "song song song sing sing sing sing song" in _Good Morning, Starshine_ would just be "bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom." (Krankor brilliantly does "sing a song, song a sing" as "bomna' yIbomchu'; bomchu' yIbomna'", breaking grammar on purpose). You can even ask "where did the fly fly off to?" I remember once someone told me that verbs that do this are called "unergative" verbs (or maybe they were the "unaccusative" ones.) A brief glance at Wikipedia pages does not seem to support this, or at least it's more complicated. ~mark
On 11/1/2021 6:39 PM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
(I know, I don't usually answer here. Fact is, I hardly ever even see posts from this list _except_ ones from SuStel, which for whatever reason aren't sorted into the right mail bucket. But just something to mention.)
chaq .name par QIn pojwI'lIj.
On 11/1/21 11:54, SuStel wrote:
We have different words for the noun /wind/ and what it does, /blow./ I'm not sure Klingons would say things like *SuS SuS* /the wind blows,/ because it's just saying the same word over again. I suspect they'd say something like *SuS 'e' DaQoylaH'a'*/Can you hear it blow?/ meaning, sort of, /Can you hear that it is windy? /This is just my guess.
Not that there's anything wrong with your suggestion, but do note that "just saying the same word over again" is not all that uncommon or strange-sounding in many languages. You can live your life or die a horrible death; W.S. Gilbert's Judge in _Trial by Jury_ sings of how he "danced a dance," or you can sing a song. OK, these are not _precisely_ the same words, but you could probably find examples like these that have the same word.
That's true, and I'm probably overreacting. But I think it's the exact repetition that bothers me. "Excuse me, darling, but what is it exactly that you do do?" -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 11/1/21 18:52, SuStel wrote:
On 11/1/2021 6:39 PM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
(I know, I don't usually answer here. Fact is, I hardly ever even see posts from this list _except_ ones from SuStel, which for whatever reason aren't sorted into the right mail bucket. But just something to mention.)
chaq .name par QIn pojwI'lIj.
chaq; jISovbe'.
On 11/1/21 11:54, SuStel wrote:
We have different words for the noun /wind/ and what it does, /blow./ I'm not sure Klingons would say things like *SuS SuS* /the wind blows,/ because it's just saying the same word over again. I suspect they'd say something like *SuS 'e' DaQoylaH'a'*/Can you hear it blow?/ meaning, sort of, /Can you hear that it is windy? /This is just my guess.
Not that there's anything wrong with your suggestion, but do note that "just saying the same word over again" is not all that uncommon or strange-sounding in many languages. You can live your life or die a horrible death; W.S. Gilbert's Judge in _Trial by Jury_ sings of how he "danced a dance," or you can sing a song. OK, these are not _precisely_ the same words, but you could probably find examples like these that have the same word.
That's true, and I'm probably overreacting. But I think it's the exact repetition that bothers me.
"Excuse me, darling, but what is it exactly that you do do?"
Yes, "do do" is a known howler, as we use "do" as an auxiliary verb a lot and particularly for emphasis (because we always use it for negation, and dropping just the negation part leaves a marked form of the verb.) And "doo-doo" is a funny word with cultural loading and that's important too. We don't have a problem with "had had", or even "that that" ("He had had an idea that that which had been bothering her was beyond his comprehension.") I sometimes try to train myself to say "indeed do" instead of "do do" for those emphasis situations, with mixed results. And "danced a dance" only fails the identical word test because of tense; if it happened in a different tense or mood, you could easily ask if someone could dance a dance on the tightrope. You can also "walk the walk and talk the talk," though that is definitely a special phrase and colloquial. Less common ones might be, I dunno, you could sneeze a tremendous sneeze or... well, actually it is completely normal and common to smell a smell ("a smelly smell that smells... smelly.") Eh, whatever. I don't think the duplicated word is necessarily going to sound marked (though surely people would notice it, even as we can notice these.) And there could be quibbles about the agentless use of SuS. Does a wind blow the same way that kindling burns? If so, that's probably not so great in Klingon, having it as the subject. ~mark
participants (3)
-
Mark E. Shoulson -
SuStel -
Will Martin