vIta'pu'be' vs vIta'be'pu'
tkd has on p. 172, {vIta'pu'be'}. I know, that the effect of the rover {-be'} can extend not only to whatever directly precedes it, but to the entire word. Still, I wonder.. If instead of {vIta'pu'be'} for "I didn't do it", we wrote {vIta'be'pu'}, then would it be equally correct ? ~ nI'ghma
To me, the two represent two different things: vIta'pu'be' - "I have not done it, ever (in the scope of time being considered)" vIta'be'pu' - "there has been at least one instance of me *not* doing (in the scope of time being considered), but I'm not necessarily denying that there were also instances of me doing it" For example: qaStaHvIS DIS vorgh, jIroppu'be'. - "Last year, I wasn't ever sick." qaStaHvIS DIS vorgh, jIropbe'pu'. - "Last year, I wasn't always sick." The distinction becomes a bit clearer with -ta': qaStaHvIS wa'Hu' ram Hoch, jIQongta'be'. - "I didn't manage to get any sleep last night." qaStaHvIS wa'Hu' ram Hoch, jIQongbe'ta'. - "I was able to remain awake last night." //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 13:39 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] vIta'pu'be' vs vIta'be'pu' tkd has on p. 172, {vIta'pu'be'}. I know, that the effect of the rover {-be'} can extend not only to whatever directly precedes it, but to the entire word. Still, I wonder.. If instead of {vIta'pu'be'} for "I didn't do it", we wrote {vIta'be'pu'}, then would it be equally correct ? ~ nI'ghma
My problem with this matter has to do, with the way I understand the {vIta'pu'be'} and the {vIta'be'pu'}, if I "read" the {-be'} as if referring only to whatever directly precedes it. I read the {vIta'pu'be'} as "it isn't completed the whatever it is that I did". And I read the {vIta'be'pu'} as "it is completed my not doing it". Lets write an example. {QIn tetlhvam vImuvpu'be'} I joined this list, but my joining isn't completed {QIn tetlhvam vImuvbe'pu'} I didn't join this list, and this (my not joining) is completed. I'm not saying that I'm right, nor am I trying to prove something. I only write these examples to demonstrate how I understand this whole subject, and thus where my confusion is. ~ nI'ghma
nI'ghma wrote:
My problem with this matter has to do, with the way I understand the {vIta'pu'be'} and the {vIta'be'pu'}, if I "read" the {-be'} as if referring only to whatever directly precedes it. I read the {vIta'pu'be'} as "it isn't completed the whatever it is that I did". And I read the {vIta'be'pu'} as "it is completed my not doing it". Lets write an example.
Let's look at how Okrand has used {-be'} with {-pu'} on the same verb. AFAIK there no examples of {-be'pu'}, one example of {-pu'be'} : pa' jIHpu'be' I wasn't there. TKD and one example of {-be'lu'pu'}: 'entepray' Hub patmey luchu'be'lu'pu' Enterprise defense systems are down. (ST5 notes) There is only a single example of {-be'} used with {-ta'} on the same verb: loDnI'wI' bIHoHta'be' My brother, you failed to kill (PB) These results surprised me. I'd have expected more examples of negative perfect verbs.
{QIn tetlhvam vImuvpu'be'} I joined this list, but my joining isn't completed
Then you didn't actually join the list. You tried {nID} to join the list, or you're in the process of joining the list (e.g. waiting for the administrator's approval) -- so why not use {-lI'} (in progress): {QIn tetlhvam vImuvlI'} -- or you decided {wuq} not to join the list after all.
{QIn tetlhvam vImuvbe'pu'} I didn't join this list, and this (my not joining) is completed.
I have no idea what this "translation" is supposed to mean. Do you mean that you failed to join the list (e.g. you tried repeatedly but the sign-up subroutine isn't working)? Perhaps if you provide a little context for each example I'd have a better idea of what you're asking. -- Voragh
jIH:
{QIn tetlhvam vImuvbe'pu'} I didn't join this list, and this (my not joining) is completed. voragh: I have no idea what this "translation" is supposed to mean. Do you mean that you failed to join the list (e.g. you tried repeatedly but the sign-up subroutine isn't working)? Perhaps if you provide a little context for each example I'd have a better idea of what you're asking.
The way I understand the translation of this example is "sometime in the past I tried/wanted/decided to join this list, but because of some reason, eventually I didn't. And now, at the time I'm speaking this sentence, my "not joining" is complete". Unfortunately, I can't explain any further my understanding of this example.. I'm at a loss myself with regards to the use of {-be'} with the {-pu'} or {-ta'}. I don't know; perhaps I'm overthinking this. From what I understand though, the {-pu'be'} is far more common, so I'll just place from now on the {-be'} after the aspect suffix without trying too much to analyze the meaning. ~ nI'ghma
I'd say you probably could say «vIta'be'pu'.» and be understood, but «vIta'pu'be'.» is more categorical: Not only has there been an instance of me not doing it, but also there have been no instances of me doing it (in the scope of time being considered). Considering "I didn't do it" sounds like something you'd say when accused of doing something bad, you'd probably want to be clear about that. «bIlugh. rut jIHeSpu'. 'ach roD jIHeSbe'qu'pu'!» "It's true, I've commited a few crimes. But what about all the crimes I HAVEN'T committed?" //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 8:01:01 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] vIta'pu'be' vs vIta'be'pu' ST5 notes:
entepray' Hub patmey luchu'be'lu'pu' Enterprise defense systems are down.
However, I do wonder.. Based on the above example, why not write {vIta'be'pu'} for "I didn't do it" ? ~ nI'ghma
On 3/9/2018 2:15 PM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:
I'd say you probably could say «vIta'be'pu'.» and be understood, but «vIta'pu'be'.» is more categorical: Not only has there been an instance of me not doing it, but also there have been no instances of me doing it (in the scope of time being considered).
I don't think there's any difference in meaning between *vIta'be'pu'* and *vIta'pu'be'* as far as anything we've ever seen. The difference between completing not-doing and not completing doing seems too hair-splitting for Klingons... or even English, since I have to resort to made-up terms like /not-doing/ to describe it. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
So, I need to ask, and I need to ask since the only public place where I customarily write klingon is this list, and since you are the only people reading what I actually write.. What do you want me to write ? {-be'pu'} or {-pu'be'} ? Or to put it another way.. If you have many years of experience in klingon, what would you use ? What would be your preferable construction ? {-be'pu'} or {-pu'be'} ? ~ nI'ghma
On 3/9/2018 2:46 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
So, I need to ask, and I need to ask since the only public place where I customarily write klingon is this list, and since you are the only people reading what I actually write..
What do you want me to write ? {-be'pu'} or {-pu'be'} ?
Or to put it another way.. If you have many years of experience in klingon, what would you use ? What would be your preferable construction ? {-be'pu'} or {-pu'be'} ?
You can use either. I would use either. I wouldn't bat an eyelash at either one. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
The difference between completing not-doing and not completing doing seems too hair-splitting for Klingons...
I'm sure there are hair-splitters in just about any culture with enough people. Also, while the case of "not-doing" may be a bit artificial, I'd say it can be quite a meaningful distinction. It becomes clearer when using -ta' rather than -pu', though: jIQongta'be' - "I have not successfully slept" (...because I have insomnia) jIQongbe'ta' - "I have successfully not-slept" (...because I was on watch) vIbejta'be' - "I have not successfully watched it" (...because my reception is terrible) vIbejbe'ta' - "I have successfully not-watched it" (...because I promised we'd watch it together) chaH vIja'ta'be' - "I have not successfully told them" (...because I haven't known how to break it to them) chaH vIja'be'ta' - "I have successfully not-told them" (...even though I'm dying to) You can even go a step further: jIQongbe'ta'be' - "I have not successfully not-slept" (...because I was just so sleepy) vIbejbe'ta'be' - "I have not successfully not-watched it" (...because I was just too eager to see what would happen next) chaH vIja'be'ta'be' - "I have not successfully not-told them" (...because I'm terrible at keeping secrets)
or even English, since I have to resort to made-up terms like not-doing to describe it.
We do make distinctions like that all the time, though; we just usually don't use the word "not" to do it: "I have remained awake." vs. "I have not slept." "I have fasted." vs. "I have not eaten." "I have refrained from reading the book." vs. "I have not read the book." In Klingon, many words don't have (known) separate known stems for their contradictions or opposites; we usually express those using negations. For example: Qoch ("disagree"), vIH ("move"), vul ("be unconscious"), jaQ ("be deep"), yoy ("be upside-down"), qur ("be greedy"), etc. This gives us a natural way to express more complex negations that sound clunky in English ("I need to not-eat", "I can not-count", "I have successfully not-completely destroyed it"), which I think is pretty neat. //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 20:19 To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] vIta'pu'be' vs vIta'be'pu' On 3/9/2018 2:15 PM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote: I'd say you probably could say «vIta'be'pu'.» and be understood, but «vIta'pu'be'.» is more categorical: Not only has there been an instance of me not doing it, but also there have been no instances of me doing it (in the scope of time being considered). I don't think there's any difference in meaning between vIta'be'pu' and vIta'pu'be' as far as anything we've ever seen. The difference between completing not-doing and not completing doing seems too hair-splitting for Klingons... or even English, since I have to resort to made-up terms like not-doing to describe it. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
loghaD:
qaStaHvIS DIS vorgh, jIroppu'be'. - "Last year, I wasn't ever sick."
The way I understand this, is "last year I was sick, but this event (my being sick) hasn't been completed" loghaD:
qaStaHvIS DIS vorgh, jIropbe'pu'. - "Last year, I wasn't always sick."
Here I read, "last year I wasn't sick, and this (my not being sick) is completed" I'm not sure what "my-being-sick-not-having-being-completed" means, or what "my-not-being-sick-being-completed" actually is; but this is all I understand from the above sentences. However, I do understand the same meaning you understand as well, from your {-ta'} examples. So, perhaps this has to do with how the reader translates the {-pu'} in his mind. ~ nI'ghma
participants (4)
-
Felix Malmenbeck -
mayqel qunenoS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel