adverbs referring to time stamps
I've never asked about this, and although it seems as a rediculously silly question, I'd like to make certain anyway. {DaSjaj chIch QummeH laHmaj lunIS romuluSngan} This sentence has the meaning of "on monday the romulans intentionally scramble our communications" (i.e. their goal is to disrupt our communications, and this happens to take place on monday). But can it mean too "intentionally on monday the romulans scramble our communications"? Meaning that for whatever reason, they chose the day to be monday when they do the scrambling. I know that it's a pretty elementary thing to ask, and I deserve to hear a big < quSDaq bIba' > but I'd like to be sure about this. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
You’re right; it is ambiguous. If the day is particularly significant to the speaker, you might tag {DaSjaj} with {-‘e’} to focus on the day (though I don’t remember ever seeing a time stamp so tagged). Otherwise you should rephrase it: Qummaj lunISmeH chIch DaSjaj luwIv romuluSnganpu’ The Romulans intentionally chose Monday to disrupt our communications. Qummaj lunISmeH DaSjaj luwIvbej romuluSnganpu’ The Romulans undoubtedly chose Monday to disrupt our communications. Qummaj lunISmeH DaSjaj luwIvba’ romuluSnganpu’ The Romulans obviously chose Monday to disrupt our communications. Or even a combination of the two: Qummaj lunISmeH chIch DaSjaj’e’ luwIv romuluSnganpu’ The Romulans intentionally chose Monday (of all days!) to disrupt our communications. … et cetera Voragh __________________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of mayqel qunen'oS I've never asked about this, and although it seems as a rediculously silly question, I'd like to make certain anyway. {DaSjaj chIch QummeH laHmaj lunIS romuluSngan} This sentence has the meaning of "on monday the romulans intentionally scramble our communications" (i.e. their goal is to disrupt our communications, and this happens to take place on monday). But can it mean too "intentionally on monday the romulans scramble our communications"? Meaning that for whatever reason, they chose the day to be monday when they do the scrambling.
For what it’s worth, I would never interpret this to mean “intentionally-on-Monday”. The time stamp informs you of when the action of the verb occurs, or is an anchor against which the time of the verb is measured (with the perfective, etc.), and the adverbial also acts on the verb. I don’t see how you could casually short-circuit this to imply that the intentionality has to do with Monday. You can’t “intentionally Monday”. You can intentionally choose Monday, or intentionally do something to a Monday, but you can’t intentionally Monday. They intentionally do it. They do it on a Monday. These things are always linked through the verb, but if you want to make a big deal out of Monday and intentionality, you need to work harder than this to make it explicit. IMHO
On Dec 9, 2021, at 8:32 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never asked about this, and although it seems as a rediculously silly question, I'd like to make certain anyway.
{DaSjaj chIch QummeH laHmaj lunIS romuluSngan}
This sentence has the meaning of "on monday the romulans intentionally scramble our communications" (i.e. their goal is to disrupt our communications, and this happens to take place on monday).
But can it mean too "intentionally on monday the romulans scramble our communications"? Meaning that for whatever reason, they chose the day to be monday when they do the scrambling.
I know that it's a pretty elementary thing to ask, and I deserve to hear a big < quSDaq bIba' > but I'd like to be sure about this.
-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ <https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/> Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 14:33, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never asked about this, and although it seems as a rediculously silly question, I'd like to make certain anyway.
{DaSjaj chIch QummeH laHmaj lunIS romuluSngan}
This sentence has the meaning of "on monday the romulans intentionally scramble our communications" (i.e. their goal is to disrupt our communications, and this happens to take place on monday).
But can it mean too "intentionally on monday the romulans scramble our communications"? Meaning that for whatever reason, they chose the day to be monday when they do the scrambling.
I don't think so. Adverbials "describe the manner of the activity", which in this case is {nIS}. They're intentionally interfering with something, not intentionally choosing something, in your sentence. If you want the intentionality to apply to the choice of Monday, I would suggest something like {chIch DaSjaj luwIvpu'}. Also, I'm not sure that {QummeH laH} is the right word for "our communications", if your provided English translation is your intention. The Klingon says "they interfere with our ability to communicate", which means something slightly different. For actually "disrupting our communications", I'd say {jabbI'IDmaj lunIS}. -- De'vID
De'vID and charghwI' I still can't understand this. Suppose every klingon in the room knows that kronos is surrounded by aliens. And suppose that gowron knows that on monday of all those aliens the romulans will be the ones who attack. So he says {DaSjaj HIv romuluSnganpu'}. He doesn't use the {-'e'} on romuluSnganpu' because the context is clear. Now suppose another scenario where although the romulans usually don't attack, they will join in on the assault but without gowron specifying when the assault will happen. So gowron says {vabDot HIv romuluSnganpu'}. Now suppose that this "unexpected/surprising/counterintuitive" attack will happen on monday. Now gowron says {DaSjaj vabDot HIv romuluSnganpu'}. Isn't the last sentence in a way the sum of the previous two? Doesn't it combine the previous two sentences? So can't it mean too "even on monday the romulans will attack"? -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
Or a scenario where although mondays are days of truce, the romulans will attack even then. {DaSjaj vabDot HIv romuluSnganpu'} It's the difference between the english sentences of "on monday even the romulans will attack" and "even on monday the romulans will attack". Granted, the klingon goes "on monday even the romulans will attack"; but does the fact that the time stamp comes always first in klingon mean that everything after it (in this case adverb) can't refer back to the time stamp that precedes it? -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
DaSjaj HIvqang romulusnganpu’ neH. vs. reH HIVqang romulusnganpu’. chaHvaD le’be’ DaSjaj. — or — HIvmeH romulusnganpu’ le’be’ DaSjaj.
On Dec 10, 2021, at 9:11 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Or a scenario where although mondays are days of truce, the romulans will attack even then.
{DaSjaj vabDot HIv romuluSnganpu'}
It's the difference between the english sentences of "on monday even the romulans will attack" and "even on monday the romulans will attack".
Granted, the klingon goes "on monday even the romulans will attack"; but does the fact that the time stamp comes always first in klingon mean that everything after it (in this case adverb) can't refer back to the time stamp that precedes it?
-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ <https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/> Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
jIH:
{DaSjaj vabDot HIv romuluSnganpu'} SuStel: It could mean Even on Monday, the Romulans will attack. On Monday, even the Romulans will attack. On Monday, the Romulans will even attack. It's even true that the Romulans will attack on Monday.
Now I understand, thanks! De'vID:
Also, I'm not sure that {QummeH laH} is the right word for "our communications", if your provided English translation is your intention. The Klingon says "they interfere with our ability to communicate", which means something slightly different. For actually "disrupting our communications", I'd say {jabbI'IDmaj lunIS}
Yes, you're right. I didn't give much thought to which would be the most efficient way to express "communications", since I was focusing more on the grammar I was asking about. Your suggestion is obviously better. Perhaps we could use the noun {Qum} too, even though it's considered to be archaic. voragh:
f the day is particularly significant to the speaker, you might tag {DaSjaj} with {-‘e’} to focus on the day (though I don’t remember ever seeing a time stamp so tagged)
Interesting.. The idea of placing the {-'e'} on a time stamp never crossed my mind until now. I'll ask about that in a different thread soon. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
On 12/10/2021 8:48 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
De'vID and charghwI' I still can't understand this.
Suppose every klingon in the room knows that kronos is surrounded by aliens.
And suppose that gowron knows that on monday of all those aliens the romulans will be the ones who attack.
So he says {DaSjaj HIv romuluSnganpu'}. He doesn't use the {-'e'} on romuluSnganpu' because the context is clear.
Now suppose another scenario where although the romulans usually don't attack, they will join in on the assault but without gowron specifying when the assault will happen.
So gowron says {vabDot HIv romuluSnganpu'}.
Now suppose that this "unexpected/surprising/counterintuitive" attack will happen on monday.
Now gowron says {DaSjaj vabDot HIv romuluSnganpu'}.
Isn't the last sentence in a way the sum of the previous two? Doesn't it combine the previous two sentences?
So can't it mean too "even on monday the romulans will attack"?
Adverbials apply to verbs, clauses, or sentences, not nouns. Like suffixes, words coming before the OVS part of the sentence are interpreted according to context; they don't modify each other directly. Interpreting that sentence with *even on Monday* is you choosing a particular emphasis. It could mean /Even on Monday, the Romulans will attack. On Monday, even the Romulans will attack. On Monday, the Romulans will even attack. It's even true that the Romulans will attack on Monday./ The position of *vabDot* doesn't have anything to do with exactly what about the sentence is unexpected. All the word means is that the action that occurs is surprising or unexpected in some way. // -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (5)
-
De'vID -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin