On 2/9/2018 1:15 PM, kechpaja@comcast.net wrote:

While I like the original idea, the most Klingon way to do that would probably be to use {rur} “to resemble”, which is this case would be best translated with the English word “like”:

Suv ghaH, yoHwI’ rur.

I disagree about *rur* being the best way to translate this. You're not trying to make a simile; you're attributing actual behavior to something. The fighter doesn't just resemble someone brave; the fighter behaves as someone brave behaves. Again, it's wrong to look for a formula to say this sort of thing. Just because English says something one way does not mean Klingon says it the same way. Find other ways. In this case there are a lot of other ways. It's not like Klingon is crippled without English /-ly./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name

In paq'batlh, the author often uses {X-DI' Y} to express things like "They X:ed in a Y:ish way." where the English uses adverbs. For example: qachvam vIcheghDI' charghwI' jIH jInaS jImupDI' I don't have the English translation here, but it was something like "I will strike viciously." ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 19:26 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Adverbiality and the verb {Da} FYI, Da behave as, act in the manner of in canon: nepwI' Daba' He is obviously lying. TKD SuvwI' DameH puqloDwI' vIghojHa'moH DaH 'e' vItlhoj I see now, I have failed to raise my son a man. PB yejquv DevwI' moj ghawran 'e' wuqta' cho' 'oDwI' Dapu'bogh janluq pIqarD HoD. Gowron... named leader of the High Council by Captain Jean-Luc Picard, who was acting as Arbiter of Succession. S25 Note that the above have a noun as the object of Da. The second example with the -meH purpose clause is similar to what you want. A -bogh relative clause is another way to add an adverbial-like phrase. Here are the other two examples I know for the sake of thoroughness: jIlay'ta' 'ej batlh jIpabta' vaj choDanIS I have kept my word of honor, and so should you PB HaDlu'meH, QuSlu'meH, SuDlu'meH lojmIt Da logh Hop Hut tengchaH. vaj loghDaq lenglaHtaH Humanpu' space station Deep Space Nine is the gateway for the exploration, intrigue and enterprise that mark the continuation of the human adventure into space... S99 -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons From: demonchaux.aurelie - A adverb, by definition, is used to specify the manner in which an action is carried out - The Klingon verb {Da} means "behave as, act in the manner of" Taking this into account, wouldn't it make sense to use <noun + Da> to convey the same meaning as an adverb? For instance: He fought bravely: Suv ghaH, yoHwI' Da He spoke calmy: jatlh ghaH, jotwI' Da He shouted angrily: jach ghaH, QeHwI' Da What do you think? ghItlhjaj

Thank you all for you replies and feedback on adverbiality in the past few days. For the sentence “he fights bravely” I’ve listed all the possibilities based on your suggestions: He fights:SuvSuvtaHvISSuvDI’ Bravely:yoHyoHwI’ ghaHyoHwI’ DayoHwI’ rur This gives us 24 possible combinations that we can choose from depending on the actual nuance of meaning we are aiming for. I’m not going to do an in-depth analysis of each one - although that would be interesting. Just a few notes:yoHwI’ rur : I think this one could be used if the apparent bravery is surprising, for instance a known coward is fighting in a brave manner, thus resembling a brave one. yoHwI’ Da: I’m interested in the <noun> + Da structure because it offers the potential to convey many additional layers of meaning, in just 2 words: loDvaD jatlh ghaH, vavHom Da : He spoke to the man in a fatherly tone (vavHom: could be “father figure”) loDvaD jatlh ghaH, vavHomqoq Dabej : He certainly spoke to the man in a paternalistic tone Thus we have the possibility of using both noun and verb suffixes to refine the meaning in a very compact manner. It is even better with the {verb-wI’} + Da structure!Suv ghaH, SuvlaHqu’wI’na’ Dachu’ ghaHHe fought, acting perfectly as a true master of fightingWe can have {verb - vb suffixes - wI’}-(noun suffixes) + Da-(vb suffixes) It might be overkill, but an adjective and/or relative clause could also be added to the mix (‘ej DaH jIjatlhtaHvIS, Hol vutwI’ vImojlaw’. ;) ) Suv ghaH, Heghrupbogh SuvlaHqu’wI’na’ qan Daba’ ghaHHe fought, obviously acting as a true old master of fighting, ready to die Perhaps all these possibilities are what mayqel was imagining earlier? :) ghItlhjaj  Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy. -------- Message d'origine --------De : Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> Date : 10/02/2018 03:25 (GMT+01:00) À : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Objet : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Adverbiality and the verb {Da} [Sorry for the spam; accidentally sent this off prematurely.]   It makes perfect sense to me, but to be on the safe side, you can use -DI' and -taHvIS to connect the sentences: {SuvtaHvIS tlhInganpu' Da!} - "They fight like Klingons!" {vaj HeghtaHvIS tlhInganpu' Dajaj!} - "Then they can die like Klingons!" {bangwI'vaD jIjatlhtaHvIS jIbIt.} - "I spoke nervously to my beloved." {jISupDI' jISoy'.} - "I jumped clumsily." In paq'batlh, the author often uses {X-DI' Y} or {X-taHvIS Y} to express things like "They X:ed in a Y:ish way." where the English uses adverbs. For example: bIjatlhDI' bIval "You speak wise words." ghoStaHvIS tam ‘ej So’ "They sneak and they creep" qachvam vIcheghDI’ charghwI’ jIH "I will return to this house victorious" jInaS jImupDI’ I don't have the English translation handy, but it was something like "I will strike viciously." che'taHvIS val qeylIS 'ej yoH     Qapqa' tlhIngan tuqmey     'ej yaymey Dun chav "The Klingon tribes flourished once more,     And many great victories were made     During Kahless's reign of wisdom and bravery." ta'meyDaj boqawDI' SuHemjaj     mu'meyDaj bojatlhDI' Suvaljaj "May you remember his deeds with pride,     May you recite his words with wisdom," From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 19:26 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Adverbiality and the verb {Da}   FYI, Da behave as, act in the manner of in canon:     nepwI' Daba'   He is obviously lying. TKD     SuvwI' DameH puqloDwI' vIghojHa'moH DaH 'e' vItlhoj   I see now, I have failed to raise my son a man. PB   yejquv DevwI' moj ghawran 'e' wuqta' cho' 'oDwI' Dapu'bogh     janluq pIqarD HoD.   Gowron... named leader of the High Council by Captain Jean-Luc Picard,     who was acting as Arbiter of Succession. S25 Note that the above have a noun as the object of Da.  The second example with the –meH purpose clause is similar to what you want.  A –bogh relative clause is another way to add an adverbial-like phrase.    Here are the other two examples I know for the sake of thoroughness:     jIlay'ta' 'ej batlh jIpabta' vaj choDanIS   I have kept my word of honor, and so should you PB   HaDlu'meH, QuSlu'meH, SuDlu'meH lojmIt Da logh Hop Hut tengchaH.     vaj loghDaq lenglaHtaH Humanpu'     space station Deep Space Nine is the gateway for the exploration, intrigue and    enterprise that mark the continuation of the human adventure into space... S99 -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons     From: demonchaux.aurelie - A adverb, by definition, is used to specify the manner in which an action is carried out - The Klingon verb {Da} means "behave as, act in the manner of" Taking this into account, wouldn't it make sense to use <noun + Da> to convey the same meaning as an adverb? For instance: He fought bravely: Suv ghaH, yoHwI' Da He spoke calmy: jatlh ghaH, jotwI' Da He shouted angrily: jach ghaH, QeHwI' Da What do you think? ghItlhjaj   

Considering that some adverbials, like {motlh}, are also verbs, I have long wondered if one can essentially use verbs as adverbials. The difference would show up in our punctuation, which might be a moot point given what is known of Klingon punctuation. Example: {mer; SuvlaH verengan} "Surprisingly, the Ferengi can fight." (Literally, "It surprises; the Ferengi can fight." In speech of course, the semicolon would be audible only as a pause, if at all. ~mIp'av