Klingon Word of the Day for Thursday, May 23, 2019 Klingon word: luS Part of speech: verb Definition: be submerged in, immersed in, surrounded by Source: qep'a' 25 This Klingon Word of the Day is brought to you by qurgh (qurgh@kli.org).
Klingon word: luS Part of speech: verb Definition: be submerged in, immersed in, surrounded by Source: qep'a' 25 [2018] _______________________________________________ AFAIK never used in a sentence. SEE ALSO: ‘oq sink (into water, etc) (v) ‘oqmoH submerge (v) (MO’s qepHom 2018 Video Interview): {'oq} is to be submerged, be under water, and {'oqmoH} is make someone be submerged, push them down. [If your boat sinks, you can say {'oq}.] But if it's a boat in your bathtub and you push it down, it's {'oqmoH}. Dech surround (v) loD Dech bIQ The water surrounds the man. (qep'a' 2018) (MO’s qepHom 2018 Video Interview): "Grammatically it's correct, but it sounds funny." ‘ay float (in/on water or other liquids) (v) (qep'a' 2018): in/on water or other liquids; for in space, see "be adrift" {rIjHa’} -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
Am 23.05.2019 um 17:36 schrieb Steven Boozer:
SEE ALSO: ‘oq sink (into water, etc) (v) ‘oqmoH submerge (v)
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
(MO’s qepHom 2018 Video Interview): {'oq} is to be submerged, be under water, and {'oqmoH} is make someone be submerged, push them down. [If your boat sinks, you can say {'oq}.] But if it's a boat in your bathtub and you push it down, it's {'oqmoH}.
Dech surround (v)
loD Dech bIQ The water surrounds the man. (qep'a' 2018)
That phrase was also from the qepHom 2018 interview, not qep'a'.
(MO’s qepHom 2018 Video Interview): "Grammatically it's correct, but it sounds funny."
I'm not nitpicking, just want your records to be correct. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de www.klingonwiki.net/En/NewWordsQepa25
From: Lieven L. Litaer Am 23.05.2019 um 17:36 schrieb Steven Boozer:
SEE ALSO: ‘oq sink (into water, etc) (v) ‘oqmoH submerge (v)
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
I agree, but my word processor keeps re-setting the default to "smart quotes".
loD Dech bIQ The water surrounds the man. (qep'a' 2018)
That phrase was also from the qepHom 2018 interview, not qep'a'.
Noted. Thanks.
I'm not nitpicking, just want your records to be correct.
So do I. I appreciate all corrections and source notes. Keep them coming. -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
On 5/23/2019 12:13 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 23.05.2019 um 17:36 schrieb Steven Boozer:
SEE ALSO: ‘oq sink (into water, etc) (v) ‘oqmoH submerge (v)
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
I can't help myself: What difference does it make? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, May 23, 2019, 19:56 SuStel, <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 5/23/2019 12:13 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 23.05.2019 um 17:36 schrieb Steven Boozer:
SEE ALSO: ‘oq sink (into water, etc) (v) ‘oqmoH submerge (v)
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
I can't help myself:
What difference does it make?
nejlu'taHvIS qaghwI' le' meybe' qaghwI' motlh 'ej Sambe'lu'. -- De'vID
On May 23, 2019, at 13:11, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 23, 2019, 19:56 SuStel, <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 5/23/2019 12:13 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 23.05.2019 um 17:36 schrieb Steven Boozer: SEE ALSO: ‘oq sink (into water, etc) (v) ‘oqmoH submerge (v)
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘. I can't help myself:
What difference does it make?
nejlu'taHvIS qaghwI' le' meybe' qaghwI' motlh 'ej Sambe'lu'.
'ach cha' qaghwI' le' Sarmey lutu'lu'law'. qatlh qay' wa' neH? moHmo‘ neH qay‘‘a‘ qaghwI‘vam?
On 5/23/2019 2:15 PM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
On May 23, 2019, at 13:11, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com <mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Thu, May 23, 2019, 19:56 SuStel, <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
On 5/23/2019 12:13 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 23.05.2019 um 17:36 schrieb Steven Boozer:
SEE ALSO: ‘oq sink (into water, etc) (v) ‘oqmoH submerge (v)
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
I can't help myself:
What difference does it make?
nejlu'taHvIS qaghwI' le' meybe' qaghwI' motlh 'ej Sambe'lu'.
'ach cha' qaghwI' le' Sarmey lutu'lu'law'. qatlh qay' wa' neH? moHmo‘ neH qay‘‘a‘ qaghwI‘vam?
jaSHa' jIjangpu' 'e' vIHech. qatlh ' ’ *je* vInejnIS, 'ej qatlh QIv ‘? ngutlhmey machqu' bIH. pIm tlhoS 'e' vIjemlaHbe'. qatlh potlh ngutlh wIvlu'bogh? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 20:28, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 5/23/2019 2:15 PM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
On May 23, 2019, at 13:11, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 23, 2019, 19:56 SuStel, <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 5/23/2019 12:13 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 23.05.2019 um 17:36 schrieb Steven Boozer:
SEE ALSO: ‘oq sink (into water, etc) (v) ‘oqmoH submerge (v)
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
I can't help myself:
What difference does it make?
nejlu'taHvIS qaghwI' le' meybe' qaghwI' motlh 'ej Sambe'lu'.
'ach cha' qaghwI' le' Sarmey lutu'lu'law'. qatlh qay' wa' neH? moHmo‘ neH qay‘‘a‘ qaghwI‘vam?
jaSHa' jIjangpu' 'e' vIHech. qatlh ' ’ *je* vInejnIS, 'ej qatlh QIv ‘?
ngutlhmey machqu' bIH. pIm tlhoS 'e' vIjemlaHbe'. qatlh potlh ngutlh wIvlu'bogh?
SuleghmoHchu'meH, {|}, {/}, {\} vIghItlh; {'}, {’}, {‘} 'e' qa'. DajemlaHbe' SoH 'ach leghlaHchu' tlhIngan mInDu' 'ej qaghwI' Sarmey DIghDI' De'wI' pImba' {|}, {/}, {\} je. nejtaHvIS De'wI' pat, pIj {|} mey {/}; motlh {|}, {/} joq meybe' {\}, latlh qaghwI'mey ngeb je. -- De'vID
On 5/23/2019 12:13 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
Am 23.05.2019 um 19:56 schrieb SuStel:
I can't help myself:
What difference does it make?
Okay, since you asked, I'd like to elaborate. But first, of course, anyone can write the way they want, I don't want to convince anyone of writing any specificic way. I'm also not going to be ironic or cynical or so, only explanining my opinion, but also listing some neutral but clear facts. First: Yes, indeed, the apostrophe is just a little piece of a small line, and written by hand it doesn't make a difference if it's a straight line or a curved one. Also on small screens, nobody will see a difference between ‘ and ’ and '. What I address here is not about Klingon, it's about typesetting, i.e. writing on computers and screens. First, this ‘ or ’ is NOT an apostrophe, it's a single quotation mark in the first place. It's somewhat similar to doing "this" or “that”, but just ‘single’. But, there's a big "but" here: Graphic designers prefer to use a so-called typographic apostrophe, which looks identical to the right single quotation mark (and also uses the same symbol), i.e. it resembles a small nine. This has been used in TKD, KGT, TKW, and many other sources - including Okrand who uses it in his mails. It can be written on windows computers by holding down the Alt-key + 0146, HTML uses the code #8217. The apostrophe is the RIGHT single quotation mark, but not the left one. It doesn't only look very ugly when you read a text like {QI‘tu’ ‘och vI’el‘a’} where the quotes jump back and forth, but it's also just the wrong symbol. That's the difference it makes. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Apostrophe
On 5/23/2019 5:25 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
On 5/23/2019 12:13 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
Am 23.05.2019 um 19:56 schrieb SuStel:
I can't help myself:
What difference does it make?
Graphic designers prefer to use a so-called typographic apostrophe, which looks identical to the right single quotation mark (and also uses the same symbol), i.e. it resembles a small nine. This has been used in TKD, KGT, TKW, and many other sources - including Okrand who uses it in his mails. It can be written on windows computers by holding down the Alt-key + 0146, HTML uses the code #8217.
The apostrophe is the RIGHT single quotation mark, but not the left one. It doesn't only look very ugly when you read a text like {QI‘tu’ ‘och vI’el‘a’} where the quotes jump back and forth, but it's also just the wrong symbol.
That's the difference it makes.
Okay, so just to be clear, your reasons are: 1) Okrand has used a right single quotation mark (U+2019), and 2) You feel the right single quotation mark is the most aesthetically pleasing. I don't see how this leaves the apostrophe (U+0027) an acceptable character to use. Typographers certainly don't like to use it for aesthetic reasons, and Okrand doesn't make any particular use of it. Why recommend it, then? Not all software will equate the two characters in searches. Is there an acceptable typeface for Klingon? A recommended line spacing? Do bullets have to be triangles? How far down the typography hole do we go? I'm more careful with my typography than anyone else on this list — who else bothers to use real em dashes, for instance? — but even I don't go out of my way to produce typographically pleasing quotation marks or apostrophes in email. I don't see how it can be an argument for anything except one's subjective aesthetic tastes. Even then, it can't be all that strong an argument, given the lack of any other particular typographic care on the list. To be clear: I agree that right single quotation marks are the most aesthetically please choice for the *qaghwI'.* I just don't see any reason to claim that left single quotation marks, or even apostrophes, are "just the wrong symbol." -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
the *qaghwI'.*
On my keyboard (US), next to the [Enter] key, there is a key; on top (shift) it has two tics, on bottom it has one tic. I press that key for a qaghwI'. Does it produce an apostrophe, or a right-single-quote, or a left-single-quote? I don't know. Whatever the computer generates when I type that key, is what I use. In the top left corner, near the [1], there is a key with a tic that leans back. It has a special use in programming. [`] Is that a left-single-quote? Both at work and at home, the email software and word processing software has auto-replace and auto-correct turned off. Makes it easier to write Klingon and documenting computer code. So no fancy quotes. ''''' - DloraH
On 5/23/2019 10:39 PM, DloraH wrote:
the *qaghwI'.* On my keyboard (US), next to the [Enter] key, there is a key; on top (shift) it has two tics, on bottom it has one tic. I press that key for a qaghwI'. Does it produce an apostrophe, or a right-single-quote, or a left-single-quote? I don't know.
It produces what Unicode calls an apostrophe, code U+0027.
In the top left corner, near the [1], there is a key with a tic that leans back. It has a special use in programming. [`] Is that a left-single-quote?
That is what Unicode calls a grave accent, code U+0060. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 24.05.2019 um 02:53 schrieb SuStel:
I don't see how this leaves the apostrophe (U+0027) an acceptable character to use.
Oh, I think you misunderstood me here. In my first messages I wrote
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
This means I suggest U+0027 and U+2019, but never U+2018. It's only this last one I say you should not use.
Is there an acceptable typeface for Klingon? A recommended line spacing? Do bullets have to be triangles? How far down the typography hole do we
Now you are the one going cynical again.
aesthetically please choice for the *qaghwI'.* I just don't see any reason to claim that left single quotation marks, or even apostrophes, are "just the wrong symbol."
As I wrote before: you misunderstood me here. There are some things, which are not my opinion, but just a simple fact. The following is a direct quote from Wikipedia (Okay, that page can be edited by anyone, but let's put that topic aside) ----------- Unicode defines three apostrophe characters: U+0027 ' APOSTROPHE Typewriter apostrophe. U+2019 ’ RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK Punctuation apostrophe. Serves as both an apostrophe and closing single quotation mark. This is the preferred character to use for apostrophe according to the Unicode standard. U+02BC ʼ MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE Modifier letters [...] [continue on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Unicode] ----------- So, all I'm saying is: please do not use the left single quotation mark. It's the wrong symbol which usually only appears due to some autocorrect function. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Apostrophe
On May 24, 2019, at 02:17, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 02:53 schrieb SuStel: I don't see how this leaves the apostrophe (U+0027) an acceptable character to use.
Oh, I think you misunderstood me here. In my first messages I wrote
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
This means I suggest U+0027 and U+2019, but never U+2018. It's only this last one I say you should not use.
SuStel isn’t asking this question because *he* thinks U+0027 is an unacceptable choice, but rather to ask why, given the reasons you listed for why U+2019 is a better choice, why U+0027 is acceptable as well. Indeed, this question refers back to the very same first message that you quoted above. I suspect SuStel has his own reasons for thinking U+0027 is acceptable, as he consistently uses it to represent qaghwI'. I agree with both you and SuStel that U+2019 is the most aesthetically pleasing choice within the apostrophe/single-quote family, but I personally use U+0027 because I come from a pre-Unicode generation of computer users that frets over things like text encodings. Of course, I love Unicode (and would love it even more if it had an official mapping for pIqaD), and any computing device worth its salt these days will have proper support for Unicode, but nevertheless I retain a (mostly philosophical) preference for staying restricted to 7-bit ASCII for basic Latin script texts, which includes Klingon in the standard Okrandian orthography. Everybody knows the only reason someone would use a left single quotation mark as a qaghwI' is because of “helpful” auto-correct “smart” quotes. I use them myself sometimes when I’m writing on a device that doesn’t make it easy to write the good old ASCII apostrophe. I don’t think anybody is making the conscious choice to use that character for qaghwI' unless they’re trying to be silly, like I was a few messages ago on this thread. And even if somebody did choose to do so intentionally for reasons other than being silly, so what? The worst thing you could really say about it is that it’s ugly, and others are free to disagree with that. Or, as De'vID mentioned, it could affect text searches, but any situation outside of “one true qaghwI'” will require some sort of concession to make text searches work, anyway. (In the iOS version of boQwI' I normalize both U+2018 and U+2019 to U+0027 before performing a search, for this reason.)
On 5/24/2019 8:57 AM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
On May 24, 2019, at 02:17, Lieven L. Litaer<levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 02:53 schrieb SuStel: I don't see how this leaves the apostrophe (U+0027) an acceptable character to use. Oh, I think you misunderstood me here. In my first messages I wrote
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘. This means I suggest U+0027 and U+2019, but never U+2018. It's only this last one I say you should not use. SuStel isn’t asking this question because*he* thinks U+0027 is an unacceptable choice, but rather to ask why, given the reasons you listed for why U+2019 is a better choice, why U+0027 is acceptable as well. Indeed, this question refers back to the very same first message that you quoted above.
I suspect SuStel has his own reasons for thinking U+0027 is acceptable, as he consistently uses it to represent qaghwI'.
Two reasons. One, because it's a lot easier to type ' on my US English keyboard than it is to type Alt-0146. And two, specifically because the glottal stop does not perform the function of an English right single quotation mark, it makes sense to me to use a symbol that is not a right single quotation mark. On my website I try to use the typographically preferred quotation marks in English, but I intentionally used the ASCII apostrophe for the Klingon. It was my typographic choice, not a statement of which symbol is "correct." (I believe I let the glottal stops in the names of *qep'a'mey* remain as right single quotation marks, probably through overlooking them.)
I agree with both you and SuStel that U+2019 is the most aesthetically pleasing choice within the apostrophe/single-quote family, but I personally use U+0027 because I come from a pre-Unicode generation of computer users that frets over things like text encodings. Of course, I love Unicode (and would love it even more if it had an official mapping for pIqaD), and any computing device worth its salt these days will have proper support for Unicode, but nevertheless I retain a (mostly philosophical) preference for staying restricted to 7-bit ASCII for basic Latin script texts, which includes Klingon in the standard Okrandian orthography.
Everybody knows the only reason someone would use a left single quotation mark as a qaghwI' is because of “helpful” auto-correct “smart” quotes. I use them myself sometimes when I’m writing on a device that doesn’t make it easy to write the good old ASCII apostrophe. I don’t think anybody is making the conscious choice to use that character for qaghwI' unless they’re trying to be silly, like I was a few messages ago on this thread. And even if somebody did choose to do so intentionally for reasons other than being silly, so what? The worst thing you could really say about it is that it’s ugly, and others are free to disagree with that. Or, as De'vID mentioned, it could affect text searches, but any situation outside of “one true qaghwI'” will require some sort of concession to make text searches work, anyway.
choyajchu'pu', Daniel. pov QIjpu'ghachlIj. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 24.05.2019 um 15:45 schrieb SuStel:
Two reasons. One, because it's a lot easier to type ' on my US English keyboard than it is to type Alt-0146. And two, specifically because the [...] statement of which symbol is "correct."
I'm not arguing between Alt-0146 and ', I'm saying that Alt-0145 is incorect. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
On 5/24/2019 10:28 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 15:45 schrieb SuStel:
Two reasons. One, because it's a lot easier to type ' on my US English keyboard than it is to type Alt-0146. And two, specifically because the [...] statement of which symbol is "correct."
I'm not arguing between Alt-0146 and ', I'm saying that Alt-0145 is incorect.
I know you're saying that. And I'm saying you are incorrect about that. What you're replying to now is my replying to DANIEL's mention of my reasons to use ' instead of ’, NOT me arguing with you about whether or not ‘ is "correct." -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 24.05.2019 um 16:34 schrieb SuStel:> I know you're saying that. And I'm saying you are incorrect about that. Then give me a proof or an example that ‘ can be used as an apostrophe. I gave you one that ’ can be used as an apostrophe. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
On 5/24/2019 10:41 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 16:34 schrieb SuStel:> I know you're saying that. And I'm saying you are incorrect about that.
Then give me a proof or an example that ‘ can be used as an apostrophe.
I gave you one that ’ can be used as an apostrophe.
I didn't say that ‘ can be used as an apostrophe. You are confusing typography practices with grammar. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 24.05.2019 um 17:01 schrieb SuStel:
I didn't say that ‘ can be used as an apostrophe.
You are confusing typography practices with grammar.
No, you are. I started of with the symbol. no more. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
On 5/24/2019 11:19 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 17:01 schrieb SuStel:
I didn't say that ‘ can be used as an apostrophe.
You are confusing typography practices with grammar.
No, you are. I started of with the symbol. no more.
Dochvetlh SoH 'e' vISov 'ach nuq jIH? wejpuH. I thought you said you gave up? Do us a favor. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 24.05.2019 um 14:57 schrieb Daniel Dadap:
SuStel isn’t asking this question because *he* thinks U+0027 is an unacceptable choice, but rather to ask why, given the reasons you listed for why U+2019 is a better choice, why U+0027 is acceptable as well.
It sounded to me like he thought I would reject 0027 and only accept 2019 as being the only perfect way.
I suspect SuStel has his own reasons for thinking U+0027 is acceptable, as he consistently uses it to represent qaghwI'. I agree with both you and SuStel that U+2019 is the most aesthetically pleasing choice within the apostrophe/single-quote family, but I personally use U+0027 because [...]
Then look back at your first sentence: the word "isn’t" uses the U+2019 apostrophe. Maybe you din't even notice?
nevertheless I retain a (mostly philosophical) preference for staying restricted to 7-bit ASCII for basic Latin script texts,
I agree, because there are still many systems that mess up unicode symbols.
I don’t think anybody is making the conscious choice to use that character for qaghwI' unless they’re trying to be silly,
It was obvious to me that Voragh hat it in there by accient, that's why I told hi to correct it.
And even if somebody did choose to do so intentionally for reasons other than being silly, so what?
I do not agree with that. It's not only ugly, it's simply an incorrect letter. We surely can't change the older in what they do, but it's the mission of this list to teach newbiew speak and also write Klingon, and using the left single quote for an apostrophe is just wrong. It's not an apostreophe. Neither is the accent grave or te degree circle. If someone write a lower case I we also tell them not to do so. Just imagine a spanish speaker coming here, starting every sentence with an upside down question mark, because he's used to in Spanish. Somebody would tell him that it's not the way we do it in English. A German speaker might be reminded that words like NGlish or Klingon are always capitalized. If I'd use this | in place of the letter l, I'm sure you would also ell me it's the wrong symbol, even though I may think it looks like the letter L. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Apostrophe
On 5/24/2019 9:46 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 14:57 schrieb Daniel Dadap:
And even if somebody did choose to do so intentionally for reasons other than being silly, so what?
I do not agree with that. It's not only ugly, it's simply an incorrect letter. We surely can't change the older in what they do, but it's the mission of this list to teach newbiew speak and also write Klingon, and using the left single quote for an apostrophe is just wrong. It's not an apostreophe. Neither is the accent grave or te degree circle.
Okrand uses this symbol in his books for the glottal stop: ’ Let's assume for now that he was specific about the typeface choice. I seem to remember him telling some story about how the editors wanted to change some of his initial ’ to ‘, and on this vague recollection I take it as true that Okrand specifically wanted ’. (If he didn't choose the character specifically, then it certainly doesn't matter which character we choose.) Okrand does not use ' in his publications, only ’. So my question to you is, why is it okay to use '? Isn't ' also the wrong character to use? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 24.05.2019 um 15:56 schrieb SuStel:
Okrand does not use ' in his publications, only ’. So my question to you is, why is it okay to use '? Isn't ' also the wrong character to use?
I NEVER SAID THAT ONE IS WRONG TO USE!!!! You turn it all upside down! -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
On 5/24/2019 10:30 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 15:56 schrieb SuStel:
Okrand does not use ' in his publications, only ’. So my question to you is, why is it okay to use '? Isn't ' also the wrong character to use?
I NEVER SAID THAT ONE IS WRONG TO USE!!!!
You turn it all upside down!
You're not listening. I didn't say you said ' is wrong to use. You said it is right to use, but your arguments against the use of ‘ can also be applied against the use of '. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
This debate raged on in the Na'vi community as well. In the end, the conclusion was the 'correct' glottal stop character was +02bc, or ' Marc seems to like using conventional characters as much as he can to make typing transliterated Klingon simple. I suspect that any character that looks approximately correct will work fine, except for circumstances where the text may be electronically translated or converted. -- -----Original Message----- From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Klingon Word of the Day: luS Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 09:56:04 -0400 Okrand uses this symbol in his books for the glottal stop: ’ Let's assume for now that he was specific about the typeface choice. I seem to remember him telling some story about how the editors wanted to change some of his initial ’ to ‘, and on this vague recollection I take it as true that Okrand specifically wanted ’. (If he didn't choose the character specifically, then it certainly doesn't matter which character we choose.) Okrand does not use ' in his publications, only ’. So my question to you is, why is it okay to use '? Isn't ' also the wrong character to use?
On May 24, 2019, at 08:46, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Then look back at your first sentence: the word "isn’t" uses the U+2019 apostrophe. Maybe you din't even notice?
That’s not a qaghwI', though. My own personal style, when I’m typing on my smartphone keyboard, which I did for that message and also for this one, is to allow it to do the normal smart quote things it does for English text, but use U+0027 for qaghwI' in Klingon text. If I allowed smart quotes to take over for Klingon text, I’d get weird qaghwI' in words like the pronoun ‘e’, which in this particular instance I’ve allowed to use the characters that my phone decided I must have meant, since I obviously meant to enclose the letter e in single quotes. But if I were indeed writing in English, and wanted to say something like “I am trying to write the letter ‘e’ on the blackboard”, then I have no problem with the smart quotes, because they’re actually appropriate. It’s completely appropriate for the apostrophe in “it’s” to be a right single quote. It’s also appropriate to use a right single quote as qaghwI’, as I have intentionally done just now. My personal choice to use the straight apostrophe as qaghwI' is because I don’t like the left single quotes either, yet autocorrect insists on using them sometimes. Since I have to override the behavior of autocorrect anyway, I might as well override it to the straight apostrophe, despite my aesthetic preference for the right single quote, since I have other, non-aesthetic reasons for preferring the straight apostrophe.
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 10:17 AM Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
My own personal style, when I’m typing on my smartphone keyboard,...is to allow it to do the normal smart quote things it does for English text, but use U+0027 for qaghwI' in Klingon text.
jIrap. For me, apostrophe/single quote is a "swipe down" on the k, but qaghwI' is a "swipe up" on the comma. -- ghunchu'wI'
ja' Daniel Dadap:
If I allowed smart quotes to take over for Klingon text, I’d get weird qaghwI' in words like the pronoun ‘e’, which in this particular instance I’ve allowed to use the characters that my phone decided I must have meant, since I obviously meant to enclose the letter e in single quotes. But if I were indeed writing in English, and wanted to say something like “I am trying to write the letter ‘e’ on the blackboard”, then I have no problem with the smart quotes, because they’re actually appropriate.
It’s completely appropriate for the apostrophe in “it’s” to be a right single quote. It’s also appropriate to use a right single quote as qaghwI’, as I have intentionally done just now.
I agree with all you have said, as you confirm my intention. Others do not understand, or just enjoy arguing with me. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Apostrophe
On 5/24/2019 3:17 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 02:53 schrieb SuStel:
I don't see how this leaves the apostrophe (U+0027) an acceptable character to use.
Oh, I think you misunderstood me here. In my first messages I wrote
You have weird apostrophes there. I suggest simple ' or fancy ’, but never ‘.
This means I suggest U+0027 and U+2019, but never U+2018. It's only this last one I say you should not use.
Yes, I got that. What I'm saying is that your arguments about Okrand's usage and typographic beauty mean that you should NOT recommend U+0027, yet you do.
Is there an acceptable typeface for Klingon? A recommended line spacing? Do bullets have to be triangles? How far down the typography hole do we
Now you are the one going cynical again.
I'm not being cynical; I'm trying to illustrate taking a standard and claiming it's an objectively true rule. Some people do recommend serif over sans serif typefaces, but that's for the ability to distinguish I from l, not because any particular typeface is more correct than another. Of course no one would claim that any particular line spacing is necessary, but it's true that line spacings of 0.5 or 20 spaces per line would be problematical for practical reasons. I can easily imagine someone claiming, because Klingons tend to use triangles in their graphics, that Klingon punctuation like bullets should be triangular. None of these are necessary to the Klingon language, and none of them would be advocated by *pIqaD*-using Klingons, who wouldn't care because it's not their writing system. So what makes punctuation any different? Outside of the IPA, there is no universal, standard symbol for a glottal stop, so which character we choose to represent it is pretty much arbitrary. See Wikipedia on writing glottal stops <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop#Writing>, which lists a whole lot of languages that use a whole lot of different symbols for the glottal stop: apostrophe, reversed apostrophe, the letter /k,/ the letter /q,/ aleph, palochka, heng, double apostrophe, sokuon, hyphen, circumflex accent, grave accent, IPA ʔ, and the numeral /7./ There is no single correct symbol for writing glottal stops.
aesthetically please choice for the *qaghwI'.* I just don't see any reason to claim that left single quotation marks, or even apostrophes, are "just the wrong symbol."
As I wrote before: you misunderstood me here. There are some things, which are not my opinion, but just a simple fact.
And I'm saying these are not simple facts, they are standards. In English publishing typography style guides. Standards are not facts, they are guidelines, and very few standards are truly universal. A well-known xkcd cartoon <https://xkcd.com/927/>: SITUATION: There are 14 competing standards. "14? Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal standard that covers everyone's use cases." "Yeah!" Soon: SITUATION: There are 15 competing standards.
The following is a direct quote from Wikipedia (Okay, that page can be edited by anyone, but let's put that topic aside)
----------- Unicode defines three apostrophe characters: U+0027 ' APOSTROPHE Typewriter apostrophe.
U+2019 ’ RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK
Punctuation apostrophe. Serves as both an apostrophe and closing single quotation mark. This is the preferred character to use for apostrophe according to the Unicode standard.
"According to the Unicode standard" is the key phrase here. Unicode does not act as the arbiter of "correct" punctuation. The purpose of Unicode is to express the writing systems of the world, not to dictate them.
So, all I'm saying is: please do not use the left single quotation mark. It's the wrong symbol which usually only appears due to some autocorrect function.
So much for "I don't want to convince anyone of writing any specificic [sic] way." You are asking that we write in a specific way, and making an argument to convince us that doing what you say is objectively correct. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 24.05.2019 um 15:35 schrieb SuStel:
Yes, I gοt that. What I'm saying is that yοur arguments abοut οkrand's usage and typοgraphic beauty mean that yοu shοuld NοT recοmmend U+0027, > yet yοu dο.
Baсk tο my οriginaɭ statement: I said tο Vοragɦ nοt tο ʋse tɦe ɭeft qʋοte - nο mοre. My preferenсe fοr tɦe typοgrapɦiс apοstrοpɦe dοes nοt exсɭʋde tɦe simpɭe apοstrοpɦe. I never said tɦat, yοʋ made me say tɦat.
Nοne οf these are necessary tο the Klingοn language,
Αs I said, tɦis is nοt abοʋt Κɭingοn ɭangʋage, it`s abοʋt writing ɭatin ɭetters οn a сοmpʋter.
circumflex accent, grave accent, IPA ʔ, and the numeral /7./ There is nο > single cοrrect symbοl fοr writing glοttal stοps.
Bʋt tɦere is a сοrreсt symbοɭ fοr tɦe apοstrοpɦe. And ΤΚD teɭɭs ʋs tο ʋse tɦe apοstrοpɦe tο dispɭay a gɭοttaɭ stοp.
And I'm saying these are nοt simple facts, they are standards. In English publishing typοgraphy style guides. Standards are nοt facts, they are guidelines, and very few standards are truly universal.
Sο wɦat dο we need standards fοr after aɭɭ tɦen? Aɦ - 0kay... I`m disсʋѕѕing witɦ a persοn frοm a cοʋntry ignοring internatiοnaɭ standards fοr οver fifty years. Nevermind. I give ʋp. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingοn Teacher frοm Germany" http://www.klingοnisch.de http://www.klingοnwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscοvery
On 5/24/2019 10:27 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 15:35 schrieb SuStel:
Yes, I gοt that. What I'm saying is that yοur arguments abοut οkrand's usage and typοgraphic beauty mean that yοu shοuld NοT recοmmend U+0027, > yet yοu dο.
Baсk tο my οriginaɭ statement: I said tο Vοragɦ nοt tο ʋse tɦe ɭeft qʋοte - nο mοre. My preferenсe fοr tɦe typοgrapɦiс apοstrοpɦe dοes nοt exсɭʋde tɦe simpɭe apοstrοpɦe. I never said tɦat, yοʋ made me say tɦat.
You gave two arguments against the left single quotation mark U+2019: it's aesthetically unpleasing, and Okrand doesn't use it. Those arguments are also true about the apostrophe U+0027: no typographer worth their salt would recommend its use for aesthetic reasons, and Okrand doesn't use it. So while you SAY use of the apostrophe is fine, the reasons you give for not using the left single quotation mark also apply against the apostrophe.
Nοne οf these are necessary tο the Klingοn language,
Αs I said, tɦis is nοt abοʋt Κɭingοn ɭangʋage, it`s abοʋt writing ɭatin ɭetters οn a сοmpʋter.
It's about the correct symbol to use to represent the Klingon glottal stop. And I maintain that it is not actually necessary to exclude the left single quotation mark from that role. I don't choose it for myself, but my preference is individual to me. I'm not proclaiming it to be wrong.
circumflex accent, grave accent, IPA ʔ, and the numeral /7./ There is nο > single cοrrect symbοl fοr writing glοttal stοps.
Bʋt tɦere is a сοrreсt symbοɭ fοr tɦe apοstrοpɦe. And ΤΚD teɭɭs ʋs tο ʋse tɦe apοstrοpɦe tο dispɭay a gɭοttaɭ stοp.
Okrand was NOT referencing the Unicode standard when he wrote TKD. But if he were, in Unicode an "apostrophe" is U+0027, while what you're advocating for is a "right single quotation mark" in Unicode, U+2019. Trying to suppose that Okrand is using Unicode terminology in TKD forces us to conclude that the right single quotation mark is also the "wrong" character to use.
And I'm saying these are nοt simple facts, they are standards. In English publishing typοgraphy style guides. Standards are nοt facts, they are guidelines, and very few standards are truly universal.
Sο wɦat dο we need standards fοr after aɭɭ tɦen?
Computer encoding issues. Unicode is a response to the need to have interoperability between computers using every language in the world. It does not dictate which symbols are the correct ones to use in any given situation. Your little character stunt in your email shows how well we humans can ignore encoding issues so long as the typeface is familiar. It doesn't matter whether you type an /l/ or a /ɭ,/ I can understand you just fine. Thank you for demonstrating my point for me.
Aɦ - 0kay... I`m disсʋѕѕing witɦ a persοn frοm a cοʋntry ignοring internatiοnaɭ standards fοr οver fifty years. Nevermind. I give ʋp.
What a pathetic response. I notice you used a hyphen-minus character after your /Ah./ As a marker of an interruption, the correct character to use, according to most style guides, is an em dash: —. I see you also used three periods to indicate a pause. Why didn't you use the Unicode ellipsis character, …? Perhaps you are using the AP style guide, which recommends three periods in a row, ... But why did you not choose the Chicago format, which has three periods separated by non-breaking spaces (U+00A0)? Maybe because there isn't a "correct" way to do these things? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, 24 May 2019 at 16:58, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
Those arguments are also true about the apostrophe U+0027: no typographer worth their salt would recommend its use for aesthetic reasons, and Okrand doesn't use it.
teHbe'. lo' Okrand. "msn" QIn ghomDaq QIn wa'DIch qonDI', {Qapla'} ghItlhmeH qaghwI' wan lo'pu': http://klingonska.org/canon/1996-08-06a-news.txt "ASCII" lo'nIStaHvIS reH qaghwI' wan lo'. -- De'vID
Am 24.05.2019 um 16:58 schrieb SuStel:
You gave two arguments against the left single quotation mark U+2019: it's aesthetically unpleasing, and Okrand doesn't use it.
Those arguments are also true about the apostrophe U+0027: no typographer worth their salt would recommend its use for aesthetic reasons, and Okrand doesn't use it.
So while you SAY use of the apostrophe is fine, the reasons you give for not using the left single quotation mark also apply against the apostrophe.
Then maybe my arguments were not complete and you have overinterpreted them. Okrand has definitely used the simple apostrophe. And now, to remain very strict nitpicking: the apostrophe is named apostreophe in TKD, so this should lead to the situation that every kind of symbol that representes an apostrophe IS acceptable as an apostrophe. The simple ' apostrophe IS an apostrophe, so it actually even does not matter whether okrand has used it or not. Nevertheless, he HAS used it, so need to argue here. Let's set it straight again for clarity: Okrand has used the simple ' Okrand has used the curly ’ simple ' is defined as apostrophe curly ’ is defined as apostrophe left ‘ is NOT defined as apostrophe left ‘ has NOT been used by Okrand This row still filters out left ‘.
It's about the correct symbol to use to represent the Klingon glottal stop. And I maintain that it is not actually necessary to exclude the left single quotation mark from that role. I don't choose it for myself, but my preference is individual to me. I'm not proclaiming it to be wrong.
As you wish. It's my preference to write a zero for an O and.
Okrand was NOT referencing the Unicode standard when he wrote TKD.
Surely not, but he said that it's an apostrophe. left single quote is not an apostrophe. Why don't you want to accept that?
Your little character stunt in your email shows how well we humans can ignore encoding issues so long as the typeface is familiar. It doesn't matter whether you type an /l/ or a /ɭ,/ I can understand you just fine. Thank you for demonstrating my point for me.
You're welcome. It was my intention that you may find it annoying, but obviously you don't. You probably just don't want to admit.
I notice you used a hyphen-minus character after your /Ah./ As a marker of an interruption, the correct character to use, according to most style guides, is an em dash: —. I see you also used three periods to
Since when do you care about style guides?
indicate a pause. Why didn't you use the Unicode ellipsis character, …?
Because I was using the easiest accessable letters available from my keyboard. These include dots, minus-hyphens and also an apostrophe. If I decide to make a fancy apostrophe, I choose the one that is defined as apostrophe, hitting Alt+0146. I don't choose anything else that just looks like one only because I think it's nice. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
On 5/24/2019 11:17 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 16:58 schrieb SuStel:
You gave two arguments against the left single quotation mark U+2019: it's aesthetically unpleasing, and Okrand doesn't use it.
Those arguments are also true about the apostrophe U+0027: no typographer worth their salt would recommend its use for aesthetic reasons, and Okrand doesn't use it.
So while you SAY use of the apostrophe is fine, the reasons you give for not using the left single quotation mark also apply against the apostrophe.
Then maybe my arguments were not complete and you have overinterpreted them.
Right. That's it. I've "overinterpreted" you. This may officially be the dumbest argument ever.
Okrand has definitely used the simple apostrophe. And now, to remain very strict nitpicking: the apostrophe is named apostreophe in TKD, so this should lead to the situation that every kind of symbol that representes an apostrophe IS acceptable as an apostrophe.
Okay, here's a job for you people with Okrand's email address. Ask him this. Please don't elaborate or try to get him to phrase the answer in any particular way. Just ask this: "Does it matter which direction the line goes in the symbol we use to represent the glottal stop in Klingon?"
The simple ' apostrophe IS an apostrophe, so it actually even does not matter whether okrand has used it or not. Nevertheless, he HAS used it, so need to argue here.
Let's set it straight again for clarity:
Okrand has used the simple ' Okrand has used the curly ’
simple ' is defined as apostrophe curly ’ is defined as apostrophe
left ‘ is NOT defined as apostrophe left ‘ has NOT been used by Okrand
And that's all fine and dandy. Go forth and use ' or ’ in the firm knowledge that you are mimicking the character choices used by Okrand himself. Amen. /The Klingon glottal stop is not an apostrophe./ Okrand uses a couple of different symbols to represent the glottal stop, one of which Unicode calls an apostrophe, and one of which typesetters call an apostrophe when there is no encoding associated with it. He does not mandate which symbol is "correct," only that he uses an effing typesetter's apostrophe in TKD. Physical typefaces are not encodings.
It's about the correct symbol to use to represent the Klingon glottal stop. And I maintain that it is not actually necessary to exclude the left single quotation mark from that role. I don't choose it for myself, but my preference is individual to me. I'm not proclaiming it to be wrong.
As you wish. It's my preference to write a zero for an O and.
You go right ahead. I'm sure that seems like exactly the same issue to you.
Okrand was NOT referencing the Unicode standard when he wrote TKD.
Surely not, but he said that it's an apostrophe. left single quote is not an apostrophe. Why don't you want to accept that?
The apostrophe Okrand speaks of in TKD is what a typesetter with a physical typeface recognizes as an apostrophe. It's defined by its shape, not its Unicode encoding (which it doesn't have because it's a physical piece of type). But Okrand is happy to use a typewriter-style straight apostrophe in place of a bend-to-the-left apostrophe when it's convenient for him to do so. He changes the symbol he uses. The effing symbol he uses is not that important. If you were typesetting a book or other publication that you wanted to look good, you would surely choose to use a right single quotation mark or a typewriter-style apostrophe, because they look good. But when you're not dealing with important typography, it really doesn't matter which symbols you use.
Your little character stunt in your email shows how well we humans can ignore encoding issues so long as the typeface is familiar. It doesn't matter whether you type an /l/ or a /ɭ,/ I can understand you just fine. Thank you for demonstrating my point for me.
You're welcome. It was my intention that you may find it annoying, but obviously you don't. You probably just don't want to admit.
It look me a few moments to even notice it.
I notice you used a hyphen-minus character after your /Ah./ As a marker of an interruption, the correct character to use, according to most style guides, is an em dash: —. I see you also used three periods to
Since when do you care about style guides?
I've always been quite interested in style guides and typography. When Lawrence sent me a style guide for some translation work, I told him I was pleased for having it; it answered a lot of the questions I would have struggled with otherwise when working on a translation for him. What type of quotation marks should I use? Do I mark foreign-language terms? How? Which foreign terms get transliterated? These are the sorts of things that style guides are good for. They're not grammatical rules; they're the rules to follow for a particular publication.
indicate a pause. Why didn't you use the Unicode ellipsis character, …?
Because I was using the easiest accessable letters available from my keyboard. These include dots, minus-hyphens and also an apostrophe. If I decide to make a fancy apostrophe, I choose the one that is defined as apostrophe, hitting Alt+0146. I don't choose anything else that just looks like one only because I think it's nice.
Then why aren't you using Unicode Modifier Letter Apostrophe, U+02BC, especially for Klingon? "Modifier letters in Unicode generally are considered part of a word, this is preferred when the apostrophe is considered as a letter in its own right, rather than punctuation that separates letters." "Some consider, though, that this character should be used for the apostrophe in English instead of U+0027 or U+2019." (Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Unicode>) It's because what Unicode gives you is a standard, not a mandate. If some style guide told you to use U+2018 as an apostrophe, you'd do it. Which symbols we use depends on how we want to use them. Using U+2018 is not "wrong." It's just not standard. There is a difference. And that's all that this stupid argument has been about. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
"This may officially be the dumbest argument ever." Then it's time to stop it, both of you (David and Lieven). This "argument" is no longer anything to do with with the Klingon language itself. If you two want to continue to argue about which character to type, take it off list or switch to using Klingon only. Chris List Admin On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 11:56 AM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 5/24/2019 11:17 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 24.05.2019 um 16:58 schrieb SuStel:
You gave two arguments against the left single quotation mark U+2019: it's aesthetically unpleasing, and Okrand doesn't use it.
Those arguments are also true about the apostrophe U+0027: no typographer worth their salt would recommend its use for aesthetic reasons, and Okrand doesn't use it.
So while you SAY use of the apostrophe is fine, the reasons you give for not using the left single quotation mark also apply against the apostrophe.
Then maybe my arguments were not complete and you have overinterpreted them.
Right. That's it. I've "overinterpreted" you. This may officially be the dumbest argument ever.
Okrand has definitely used the simple apostrophe. And now, to remain very strict nitpicking: the apostrophe is named apostreophe in TKD, so this should lead to the situation that every kind of symbol that representes an apostrophe IS acceptable as an apostrophe.
Okay, here's a job for you people with Okrand's email address. Ask him this. Please don't elaborate or try to get him to phrase the answer in any particular way. Just ask this:
"Does it matter which direction the line goes in the symbol we use to represent the glottal stop in Klingon?"
The simple ' apostrophe IS an apostrophe, so it actually even does not matter whether okrand has used it or not. Nevertheless, he HAS used it, so need to argue here.
Let's set it straight again for clarity:
Okrand has used the simple ' Okrand has used the curly ’
simple ' is defined as apostrophe curly ’ is defined as apostrophe
left ‘ is NOT defined as apostrophe left ‘ has NOT been used by Okrand
And that's all fine and dandy. Go forth and use ' or ’ in the firm knowledge that you are mimicking the character choices used by Okrand himself. Amen.
*The Klingon glottal stop is not an apostrophe.* Okrand uses a couple of different symbols to represent the glottal stop, one of which Unicode calls an apostrophe, and one of which typesetters call an apostrophe when there is no encoding associated with it. He does not mandate which symbol is "correct," only that he uses an effing typesetter's apostrophe in TKD. Physical typefaces are not encodings.
It's about the correct symbol to use to represent the Klingon glottal stop. And I maintain that it is not actually necessary to exclude the left single quotation mark from that role. I don't choose it for myself, but my preference is individual to me. I'm not proclaiming it to be wrong.
As you wish. It's my preference to write a zero for an O and.
You go right ahead. I'm sure that seems like exactly the same issue to you.
Okrand was NOT referencing the Unicode standard when he wrote TKD.
Surely not, but he said that it's an apostrophe. left single quote is not an apostrophe. Why don't you want to accept that?
The apostrophe Okrand speaks of in TKD is what a typesetter with a physical typeface recognizes as an apostrophe. It's defined by its shape, not its Unicode encoding (which it doesn't have because it's a physical piece of type). But Okrand is happy to use a typewriter-style straight apostrophe in place of a bend-to-the-left apostrophe when it's convenient for him to do so. He changes the symbol he uses. The effing symbol he uses is not that important.
If you were typesetting a book or other publication that you wanted to look good, you would surely choose to use a right single quotation mark or a typewriter-style apostrophe, because they look good. But when you're not dealing with important typography, it really doesn't matter which symbols you use.
Your little character stunt in your email shows how well we humans can ignore encoding issues so long as the typeface is familiar. It doesn't matter whether you type an /l/ or a /ɭ,/ I can understand you just fine. Thank you for demonstrating my point for me.
You're welcome. It was my intention that you may find it annoying, but obviously you don't. You probably just don't want to admit.
It look me a few moments to even notice it.
I notice you used a hyphen-minus character after your /Ah./ As a marker of an interruption, the correct character to use, according to most style guides, is an em dash: —. I see you also used three periods to
Since when do you care about style guides?
I've always been quite interested in style guides and typography. When Lawrence sent me a style guide for some translation work, I told him I was pleased for having it; it answered a lot of the questions I would have struggled with otherwise when working on a translation for him. What type of quotation marks should I use? Do I mark foreign-language terms? How? Which foreign terms get transliterated? These are the sorts of things that style guides are good for. They're not grammatical rules; they're the rules to follow for a particular publication.
indicate a pause. Why didn't you use the Unicode ellipsis character, …?
Because I was using the easiest accessable letters available from my keyboard. These include dots, minus-hyphens and also an apostrophe. If I decide to make a fancy apostrophe, I choose the one that is defined as apostrophe, hitting Alt+0146. I don't choose anything else that just looks like one only because I think it's nice.
Then why aren't you using Unicode Modifier Letter Apostrophe, U+02BC, especially for Klingon? "Modifier letters in Unicode generally are considered part of a word, this is preferred when the apostrophe is considered as a letter in its own right, rather than punctuation that separates letters." "Some consider, though, that this character should be used for the apostrophe in English instead of U+0027 or U+2019." ( Wikipedia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Unicode>)
It's because what Unicode gives you is a standard, not a mandate. If some style guide told you to use U+2018 as an apostrophe, you'd do it. Which symbols we use depends on how we want to use them.
Using U+2018 is not "wrong." It's just not standard. There is a difference. And that's all that this stupid argument has been about.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 5/24/2019 12:34 PM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
"This may officially be the dumbest argument ever."
Then it's time to stop it, both of you (David and Lieven).
This "argument" is no longer anything to do with with the Klingon language itself. If you two want to continue to argue about which character to type, take it off list or switch to using Klingon only.
Chris List Admin
maj. SIbI' jIHeQqangbej. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
tlhIngan Hol bopnISmo' tetlhvam, Holvetlh vIlo'qangbej. vabDot, jIjang 'e' vIbup 'e' vIja'pu', 'ach 'e' bupbe'ba' SuStel, vaj jIruch. Am 24.05.2019 um 17:55 schrieb SuStel:
Right. That's it. I've "overinterpreted" you. This may officially be the dumbest argument ever.
roD bIghoHtaH bIvalHa' je SoH.
Okay, here's a job for you people with Okrand's email address. Ask him this.
DaH bIDoghqu'. SaHbe'bej 'oqranD. 'ach DIvI' Hol ngutlhmey SeHlaHbe' ghaH. vaj ghaH ghelnISlu'be'.
/The Klingon glottal stop is not an apostrophe./
not ngoDvetlh vImaq. mu'ghomDaq qaghwI' DelmeH mu' apostrophe lo'lu'. ngoDvammo' 'oHvaD apostrophe vIpong. Apostrophe Dacha' DaneHchugh, vaj apostrophe ngutlh Dacha'nIS. latlh ngutlh Dalo'chugh vaj muj wanI'.
different symbols to represent the glottal stop, one of which Unicode calls an apostrophe, and one of which typesetters call an apostrophe
bIyajbe'taHqu' jay'. not noDvetlh vIHon. muj latlh ngutlh 'e' vImaq neH.
The apostrophe Okrand speaks of in TKD is what a typesetter with a physical typeface recognizes as an apostrophe. It's defined by its shape, not its Unicode encoding. [...] convenient for him to do so. He changes the symbol he uses. The effing symbol he uses is not that important.
'ach reH apostrophe lo'taH; not latlh ngutlh lo'. not jatlh <tlheghHom yIlo'. jISaHbe'.> -- jatlh <apostrophe yIlo'.>
Using U+2018 is not "wrong." It's just not standard.
maQochbe' 'e' wIQoch.
difference. And that's all that this stupid argument has been about.
ghoHbogh mu'mey Dogh DatIvba'. rIn. DaH ngutlhvetlh vIrIch 'e' vImev. Lieven.
participants (10)
-
Alan Anderson -
Daniel Dadap -
De'vID -
DloraH -
Klingon Word of the Day -
Lieven L. Litaer -
qurgh lungqIj -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Tim Stoffel