My own dictionary lists the measurements as: cheb = approximately 5 pounds (2.25kg) cheb’a’ = approximately 45-46.4 pounds (20.4-21.05kg) (9-9.28 cheb) Sources are MSN and the Bird of Prey poster. Overall, Okrand has been a little vague about measurements; good enough to understand roughly how heavy a think is described by a Klingon, or roughly what to tell a Klingon that a thing weighs, but not enough for serious business exchanges, or for passing on grandma’s recipe for ro’qegh ‘Iwchab, unless grandma was vague and sloppy. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Oct 28, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Melanie Roney <nahqun@gmail.com> wrote:

DloraH(?) had a page up that had a very nice conversion table all layed out.

I can't seem to find it, though.

Anyone else have the link?

~Melanie Roney Sent from my Palm Prē

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 04:30 Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de <mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote: Hello,

I know that {cheb} is defined as "roughly 5 lbs" in Okrand's Usenet message. And the BoP poster mentions the weight of {cheb'a'} in the following relationship:

375,000 cheb'a' = 8.7 KT

I remember reading that 1 {cheb'a'} might be 9 {cheb}, but no matter what I calculate, I don't get it – so where's my error?

-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com <http://www.tlhinganhol.com/> http://klingon.wiki/En/Measurements <http://klingon.wiki/En/Measurements> _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org <http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org> _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

Am 28.10.2020 um 21:00 schrieb Alan Anderson:

Unless you show your math, I can’t tell where your error is.

I intentionally decided not to show my math because I am aware that there are different way to calculate a ton, so I wanted to see which way somebody had taken to get a result close to 1 cheb = 9 cheb. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/Word/Cheb-a-

Am 29.10.2020 um 03:01 schrieb De'vID:

It is commonly assumed that a {cheb'a'} is 9 {cheb}, but Dr. Okrand did not explicitly state this. He only said that "most units" of measure had forms with {-'a'} added to mean 9 times. The report of that conversation is here: https://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/1999/February/msg00061.html

^ ^ ^ ^ This is exactly the kind of answer I needed. Thanks!

You are most certainly using the wrong definition of "KT".

That's what I had assumed. I still keep believing that international standards have reached the entire world. ;-)

If you use an American "short" ton and assume a factor of 9, you get:

Thanks for calculating this for me. I had tried all of those ways and came to the same result, but my "internal Sheldon" did not accept such a large difference.

Presumably, the difference is between the gravity on Qo'noS and the gravity on Earth, since "pounds" are a unit of weight, not mass.

Oh yes, people keep mixing these up all the time. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Measurements

QIn tlheghvam vInaQmoHmeH, naDev https://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/2012/March/msg00137.html QIn naQ vIrev: ---------- ---------- From: "De'vID jonpIn" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] juvmeH mu' Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 02:35:07 +0100 loghaD:

ULTIMATE CONCLUSION: Our previous conclusion has been re-confirmed to great accuracy. Also, Marc shows great consistency in his use of the 'uj.

maj. I must've either done the calculation, or gotten the value from someone else who had done so. {'uj} = 34.83 cm is settled then. This also makes an {'uj'a'} = 313.47 cm if I'm not mistaken. loghaD:

A kilogram is specifically a measure of mass, rather than force, so it should be mass if the gloss is to be taken literally. However, it is sometimes used colloquially in expressions like "On the moon, I'd only weigh about 15 kg!"

Unfortunately, the canon uses of {cheb}/{cheb'a'} confuse weight and mass.

From msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand: http://klingonska.org/canon/1997-10-22-news.txt "A common unit of weight is <cheb>, which is around five pounds (2.25 kg or so)."

From the Bird-of-Prey poster: {wejvatlh SochmaH vagh SaD cheb'a'mey ngI' Duj} "Mass: 8.7KT lit. The ship has a weight of 375,000 cheb'a'."

Assuming KT = kiloton = 1000 tons, there's still the problem of whether a "ton" is: (1) "long" (or "imperial") ton: 2240 lb / 1016.047 kg (2) "short" ton: 2000 lb / 907.185 kg (3) metric ton: (or "tonne"): 2204.62 lb / 1000 kg There's also the question of whether a {cheb'a'} is (A) 9 {cheb} or (B) 10 {cheb} (or maybe even some other multiple). The possibilities are: (A1) 5.774 lb / 2.619 kg (A2) 5.156 lb / 2.339 kg (A3) 5.683 lb / 2.578 kg (B1) 5.197 lb / 2.357 kg (B2) 4.64 lb / 2.105 kg (B3) 5.115 lb / 2.32 kg None of these are particularly close to the state value of around 5 lb / 2.25 kg. However, I might've made a mistake somewhere, so someone please check my math. It seems that common usage in the USA is to short the short ton (2000 lb), in which case (A2) appears to be the correct scenario: a {cheb} is 5.156 lb / 2.339 kg, and a {cheb'a'} is 46.4 lb / 21.05 kg. 'anan naHQun:

Doesn't DloraH have a chart on-line somewhere?

I tried looking for it, but failed.

I've always used those measurements when doing any conversions.

I managed to locate these two pages: https://65.13.120.12/tlhIngan/cheb-uj.htm http://klingon.wikia.com/wiki/juvmeH_'op However, neither of them explain how they decided on their values of {cheb} and {cheb'a'}. Furthermore, they contradict each other. DloraH's site has: {cheb} = 4.96 lb / 2.25 kg the Wikia site has: {cheb} = 1.008 lb / 2.27 kg The only thing I have to go on is the two canonical uses cited above. -- De'vID ---------- ---------- ~ Q

ghunchu'wI', wa'DIch mu'mey veb Dajatlhpu': ghunchu'wI':

The only confusion is in the minds of people who were indoctrinated by overzealous physics teachers in high school. The legal definition of a pound *is* a mass.

'ej ghIq mu'mey veb Darevpu':

On Oct 29, 2020, at 8:57 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:

Unfortunately, the canon uses of {cheb}/{cheb'a'} confuse weight and mass.

mu'meyvam vIqonpu'be'; mu'meyvam qonpu' De'vID. vay' DarevchoHpa', vay'vam qonwI' DaSovnISchu'. qonwI'pu' Dangu'Ha'chugh, vaj chaq SoHvaD jangchoH qonwI' Dangu'Ha'pu'bogh. 'ej naDev facebook 'oHbe'. naDev QIn tlhegh comments botlaHbe' nuv.. ~ Q

It’s true that most scales we use are “not legal for trade”, and measure force without regard for local variations in gravitational acceleration. In order to be legal for trade, a scale must be calibrated and certified. The process of doing so involves using a known mass. A calibrated scale *does* compare the object being weighed against that mass, albeit indirectly. -- ghunchu'wI'

On Oct 29, 2020, at 11:59 AM, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:

Most scales we use don’t compare two masses. They merely measure the compression of a spring or the deviation of properties of electricity passing through a physically stressed material, because that’s cheaper to make and easier to get a reading from, so we measure weight, not mass, unless we have the classic “doctor’s scale”.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 at 15:38, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:

The only confusion is in the minds of people who were indoctrinated by overzealous physics teachers in high school. The legal definition of a pound *is* a mass.

What's confusing are the words "around five pounds (2.25 kg or so)". By the legal definition, 5 lb is 2.26796185 kg. Is that "2.25" just a round value (like "five" is)? Or is this an example of Klingons being sometimes inaccurate, but never approximate? -- De'vID

On Thu, 2020-10-29 at 14:56 +0200, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:

From the Bird-of-Prey poster: {wejvatlh SochmaH vagh SaD cheb'a'mey ngI' Duj} "Mass: 8.7KT lit. The ship has a weight of 375,000 cheb'a'."

Assuming KT = kiloton = 1000 tons, there's still the problem of whether a "ton" is:

(1) "long" (or "imperial") ton: 2240 lb / 1016.047 kg (2) "short" ton: 2000 lb / 907.185 kg (3) metric ton: (or "tonne"): 2204.62 lb / 1000 kg

There's also the question of whether a {cheb'a'} is (A) 9 {cheb} or (B) 10 {cheb} (or maybe even some other multiple).

The possibilities are: (A1) 5.774 lb / 2.619 kg (A2) 5.156 lb / 2.339 kg (A3) 5.683 lb / 2.578 kg (B1) 5.197 lb / 2.357 kg (B2) 4.64 lb / 2.105 kg (B3) 5.115 lb / 2.32 kg

None of these are particularly close to the state value of around 5 lb / 2.25 kg. However, I might've made a mistake somewhere, so someone please check my math.

It seems that common usage in the USA is to short the short ton (2000 lb), in which case (A2) appears to be the correct scenario: a {cheb} is 5.156 lb / 2.339 kg, and a {cheb'a'} is 46.4 lb / 21.05 kg.

'anan naHQun:

...

Doesn't DloraH have a chart on-line somewhere?

I tried looking for it, but failed.

I've always used those measurements when doing any conversions.

I managed to locate these two pages: https://65.13.120.12/tlhIngan/cheb-uj.htm http://klingon.wikia.com/wiki/juvmeH_'op

However, neither of them explain how they decided on their values of {cheb} and {cheb'a'}. Furthermore, they contradict each other.

DloraH's site has: {cheb} = 4.96 lb / 2.25 kg the Wikia site has: {cheb} = 1.008 lb / 2.27 kg

The only thing I have to go on is the two canonical uses cited above.

65.13.120.12 is an old IP, I don't recall when that 4.96 was calculated in relation to the poster. Currently, I have my calculator app set to "A2" mentioned above. 5.156 lbs / 2.3387 kg. - DloraH