I was listening to “The Klingon Way” as narrated by Michael Dorn and Roxann Biggs-Dawson, and couldn’t help but notice that it sounds like B’Elanna almost always (but not totally consistently) pronounces the {qaghwI'} as [t]. Perhaps [t] as an allophone of either /t/ or /ʔ/ may have been a feature of Miral’s dialect? Or is it an idiosyncrasy particular to B'elanna? I like thinking it’s dialect, since “dialect” is usually my headcanon for why Klingon given names often don’t make phonological sense in {ta' Hol}. Either that, or Federation Xenolinguists employ transliterations we don’t understand, or they’re just really bad at transliteration. It doesn’t match the description of any of the dialects listed at http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Dialect, but does anyone know of other instances where a speaker semi-consistently pronounces {qaghwI'} as [t]?
On 5/20/2018 11:22 AM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
I was listening to “The Klingon Way” as narrated by Michael Dorn and Roxann Biggs-Dawson, and couldn’t help but notice that it sounds like B’Elanna almost always (but not totally consistently) pronounces the {qaghwI'} as [t]. Perhaps [t] as an allophone of either /t/ or /ʔ/ may have been a feature of Miral’s dialect? Or is it an idiosyncrasy particular to B'elanna?
I like thinking it’s dialect, since “dialect” is usually my headcanon for why Klingon given names often don’t make phonological sense in {ta' Hol}. Either that, or Federation Xenolinguists employ transliterations we don’t understand, or they’re just really bad at transliteration. It doesn’t match the description of any of the dialects listed at http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Dialect, but does anyone know of other instances where a speaker semi-consistently pronounces {qaghwI'} as [t]?
Dorn and Dawson had only some audio recordings of Okrand and, I think, a brief explanation of Klingon phonology when they recorded those. I chalk it up to actors not being given enough direction; I don't have my head buried so deeply in /Star Trek/ fandom I can't just accept a flawed production as being flawed. That said, we really know only a tiny bit about "the fiction of Klingon conformity." How many planets, with how many districts, and how many cities, are there in the Empire? We don't know. We don't know how well a half-Klingon who doesn't really like being Klingon actually speaks Klingon. There is just so much we don't know, there's really little point in trying to discern the reason for an aberration. It could be anything. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 20.05.2018 um 17:22 schrieb Daniel Dadap:
I was listening to “The Klingon Way” as narrated by Michael Dorn and Roxann Biggs-Dawson, and couldn’t help but notice that it sounds like B’Elanna almost always (but not totally consistently) pronounces the {qaghwI'} as [t]. Perhaps [t] as an allophone of either /t/ or /ʔ/ may have been a feature of Miral’s dialect? Or is it an idiosyncrasy particular to B'elanna?
I would not regard this tape as being any official dialect, not even a canon example of Klingon. SuStel wrote it in a very polite way, but I would just say that this audio book version of TKW is really, really bad. I listened once to it, and stopped halfway because it hurt my ears. Beginners of Klingon should actually never listen to that, because it's just bad Klingon. This information is included in the German version, but I'll add that to the wiki immediately right here: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/TheKlingonWay -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
It certainly wouldn't be outside the realm of plausibility. In fact, something similar happens in some English varieties, with "bottle" being pronounced "bo-uhl" and so forth. Wikipedia uses the example words "cat", "the" and "button": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop#Occurrence As for Klingon: Based on the particular variant of no' Hol that was used in paq'batlh, it appears that word-final {t} morphed into {'} at some point (assuming a direct ancestry; it could simply be a cognate). Perhaps this tendency remains in some dialects, or perhaps it could be a case of convergent evolution. Here are some examples (with no' Hol and English from the book; the modernized Klingon glossing is my own guesswork, with word order preserved): no' Hol: [...] teq tyot lityanmaq’ English: [Thus] a second heart was forged. Modernized: [...] tIq cha' luchenmoH no' Hol: netabq’ot ‘usrutyeDi pog’ ‘eDyayloq’ English: Their power combined, invincible, Modernized: nItebHa' HoSchaj pagh ['e]jeylaH no' Hol: ‘ach juqmut wob g’irDet / Dyav q’usru g’ir Dya English: The louder they beat, / The larger the storm became. Modernized: 'ach joqmo' wab ghurDI' / jev HoS ghur je no' Hol: quq’ syisi vivbat English: The wind does not respect a fool. Modernized: qoH SuS vuvbe' no' Hol: teqmaaDoDi jotlhDet / [...] ‘ewDoDi tlhipDet / tlhengon ‘eDinesru English: A Klingon must listen / To his hearts / [And] the whispers of his blood. Modernized: tIq[maa]Daj jatlhDI' / [...] 'IwDaj tlhupDI' / tlhIngan 'IjnIS no' Hol: Durmut / tog' English: Out of the end / Came the beginning, Modernized: Dormo' / tagh Note that the ' in *'ew* has been preserved in the modern/future-day {'Iw}, while the ' in *'usru* appears to have become the H in {HoS}. There is also the notable exception of *'qi'tu'* becoming {QI'tu'}. We also have a couple of examples of words ending in {oot} morphing into {aw'}. [Note that both of these examples include the syllable *me*, which appears to be an archaic verb prefix for "THEY verb THEM". They also both contain the plural suffix -maa, which is likely a precursor to -mey but is also used for body parts and beings capable of language.] no' Hol: 'qinmaa meqoot English: They destroyed their gods. Modernized: Qun[maa] [me]Qaw' no' Hol: [...] mu’qberet tunsroot teqmaa metyanmuq’ English: The hearts created [five] forms of mok’bara Modernized: moQbara' tonSaw' tIq[maa] [me]chenmoH ...and one of words enging in {oy'} morphing into {ay'}: no' Hol: moy’ qitqitmut English: a fierce battle Modernized: may' qu'qu'mo' We have one (somewhat questionable) example that may suggest that certain syllables could change depending on their place in a word: no' Hol: [...] tubba'lit English: [...] unchallenged IF this word corresponds to the modern/future-day {tobbe'lu'}, we would have *ba'* as the precursor of -be' in one word, while also appearing as *bat* in the sentence *quq’ syisi vivbat* above. //loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 19:07 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] {'} as [t] - dialect? Am 20.05.2018 um 17:22 schrieb Daniel Dadap:
I was listening to “The Klingon Way” as narrated by Michael Dorn and Roxann Biggs-Dawson, and couldn’t help but notice that it sounds like B’Elanna almost always (but not totally consistently) pronounces the {qaghwI'} as [t]. Perhaps [t] as an allophone of either /t/ or /ʔ/ may have been a feature of Miral’s dialect? Or is it an idiosyncrasy particular to B'elanna?
I would not regard this tape as being any official dialect, not even a canon example of Klingon. SuStel wrote it in a very polite way, but I would just say that this audio book version of TKW is really, really bad. I listened once to it, and stopped halfway because it hurt my ears. Beginners of Klingon should actually never listen to that, because it's just bad Klingon. This information is included in the German version, but I'll add that to the wiki immediately right here: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/TheKlingonWay -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On May 20, 2018, at 13:44, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
It certainly wouldn't be outside the realm of plausibility. In fact, something similar happens in some English varieties, with "bottle" being pronounced "bo-uhl" and so forth. Wikipedia uses the example words "cat", "the" and "button": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop#Occurrence
Yes, in fact I was thinking along the lines of “bo-uhl” here.
As for Klingon: Based on the particular variant of no' Hol that was used in paq'batlh, it appears that word-final {t} morphed into {'} at some point (assuming a direct ancestry; it could simply be a cognate). Perhaps this tendency remains in some dialects, or perhaps it could be a case of convergent evolution.
Wow, I had only vaguely heard of paq'batlh, and was only vaguely aware that it was explained as being ancient (and hence why the title of the book isn’t, for example, batlh paq), but I wasn’t aware that it was actually written in an archaic language. When I get a bit more experienced with modern ta' Hol I am definitely going to want to check out the no' Hol in paq'batlh, as phonological shifts over time is a particular area of interest for me. The examples you cite below are utterly fascinating, and I find your proposed reconstructions entirely believable. The occurrence of no'Hol [t] where modern ta' Hol ['] occurs would certainly be a ready explanation for some modern dialects preserving [t], and I find a shift from [t] to ['] perfectly believable.
Here are some examples (with no' Hol and English from the book; the modernized Klingon glossing is my own guesswork, with word order preserved):
no' Hol: [...] teq tyot lityanmaq’ English: [Thus] a second heart was forged. Modernized: [...] tIq cha' luchenmoH
no' Hol: netabq’ot ‘usrutyeDi pog’ ‘eDyayloq’ English: Their power combined, invincible, Modernized: nItebHa' HoSchaj pagh ['e]jeylaH
no' Hol: ‘ach juqmut wob g’irDet / Dyav q’usru g’ir Dya English: The louder they beat, / The larger the storm became. Modernized: 'ach joqmo' wab ghurDI' / jev HoS ghur je
no' Hol: quq’ syisi vivbat English: The wind does not respect a fool. Modernized: qoH SuS vuvbe'
no' Hol: teqmaaDoDi jotlhDet / [...] ‘ewDoDi tlhipDet / tlhengon ‘eDinesru English: A Klingon must listen / To his hearts / [And] the whispers of his blood. Modernized: tIq[maa]Daj jatlhDI' / [...] 'IwDaj tlhupDI' / tlhIngan 'IjnIS
no' Hol: Durmut / tog' English: Out of the end / Came the beginning, Modernized: Dormo' / tagh
Note that the ' in *'ew* has been preserved in the modern/future-day {'Iw}, while the ' in *'usru* appears to have become the H in {HoS}. There is also the notable exception of *'qi'tu'* becoming {QI'tu'}.
FWIW, in B’elanna’s (or maybe originally Miral’s) “dialect”, at least according to the tape, the word for blood is (usually, but not always) pronounced something like the English word “you” with a clear [j] glide in the beginning of the syllable.
We also have a couple of examples of words ending in {oot} morphing into {aw'}. [Note that both of these examples include the syllable *me*, which appears to be an archaic verb prefix for "THEY verb THEM". They also both contain the plural suffix -maa, which is likely a precursor to -mey but is also used for body parts and beings capable of language.]
Cool, I like the idea of the verb prefix system originally being more complete, with the zero prefix ambiguity only arising as a result of a later simplification. I also like the distinct plural suffixes being a modern innovation, especially since IRL the separate plural suffix for language capable beings developed out of necessity when the meaning of “qama'pu' jonta' neH” had to be radically altered.
no' Hol: 'qinmaa meqoot English: They destroyed their gods. Modernized: Qun[maa] [me]Qaw'
no' Hol: [...] mu’qberet tunsroot teqmaa metyanmuq’ English: The hearts created [five] forms of mok’bara Modernized: moQbara' tonSaw' tIq[maa] [me]chenmoH
...and one of words enging in {oy'} morphing into {ay'}:
no' Hol: moy’ qitqitmut English: a fierce battle Modernized: may' qu'qu'mo'
We have one (somewhat questionable) example that may suggest that certain syllables could change depending on their place in a word:
no' Hol: [...] tubba'lit English: [...] unchallenged
IF this word corresponds to the modern/future-day {tobbe'lu'}, we would have *ba'* as the precursor of -be' in one word, while also appearing as *bat* in the sentence *quq’ syisi vivbat* above.
That would be consistent with proto *t (or another voiceless stop type phoneme) being expressed as allophones [t] or ['] in no' Hol, and developing into ['] in modern ta' Hol. Maybe it was distinguished from the proto-phoneme that developed into modern /t/ (which also seems to have had [t] as an allophone in no' Hol) by place of articulation, being aspirated or not, or something else.
//loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 19:07 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] {'} as [t] - dialect?
Am 20.05.2018 um 17:22 schrieb Daniel Dadap:
I was listening to “The Klingon Way” as narrated by Michael Dorn and Roxann Biggs-Dawson, and couldn’t help but notice that it sounds like B’Elanna almost always (but not totally consistently) pronounces the {qaghwI'} as [t]. Perhaps [t] as an allophone of either /t/ or /ʔ/ may have been a feature of Miral’s dialect? Or is it an idiosyncrasy particular to B'elanna?
I would not regard this tape as being any official dialect, not even a canon example of Klingon. SuStel wrote it in a very polite way, but I would just say that this audio book version of TKW is really, really bad. I listened once to it, and stopped halfway because it hurt my ears. Beginners of Klingon should actually never listen to that, because it's just bad Klingon.
This information is included in the German version, but I'll add that to the wiki immediately right here: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/TheKlingonWay
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
but I wasn’t aware that it was actually written in an archaic language.
It's really only the first three cantos that are written in no' Hol, but that's still enough to glean quite a bit of the shifts which have occurred. 'ISqu' posted a very good summary back when the book was first published: http://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/2011/December/msg00031.html
FWIW, in B’elanna’s (or maybe originally Miral’s) “dialect”, at least according to the tape, the word for blood is (usually, but not always) pronounced something like the English word “you” with a clear [j] glide in the beginning of the syllable.
I think quite a lot of people do this, possibly because the word is often described as sounding like the English word "eww" or "eugh", which sometimes has that glide at the beginning. It's quite possible that that's what her notes said. //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 21:12 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] {'} as [t] - dialect? On May 20, 2018, at 13:44, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>> wrote: It certainly wouldn't be outside the realm of plausibility. In fact, something similar happens in some English varieties, with "bottle" being pronounced "bo-uhl" and so forth. Wikipedia uses the example words "cat", "the" and "button": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop#Occurrence Yes, in fact I was thinking along the lines of “bo-uhl” here. As for Klingon: Based on the particular variant of no' Hol that was used in paq'batlh, it appears that word-final {t} morphed into {'} at some point (assuming a direct ancestry; it could simply be a cognate). Perhaps this tendency remains in some dialects, or perhaps it could be a case of convergent evolution. Wow, I had only vaguely heard of paq'batlh, and was only vaguely aware that it was explained as being ancient (and hence why the title of the book isn’t, for example, batlh paq), but I wasn’t aware that it was actually written in an archaic language. When I get a bit more experienced with modern ta' Hol I am definitely going to want to check out the no' Hol in paq'batlh, as phonological shifts over time is a particular area of interest for me. The examples you cite below are utterly fascinating, and I find your proposed reconstructions entirely believable. The occurrence of no'Hol [t] where modern ta' Hol ['] occurs would certainly be a ready explanation for some modern dialects preserving [t], and I find a shift from [t] to ['] perfectly believable. Here are some examples (with no' Hol and English from the book; the modernized Klingon glossing is my own guesswork, with word order preserved): no' Hol: [...] teq tyot lityanmaq’ English: [Thus] a second heart was forged. Modernized: [...] tIq cha' luchenmoH no' Hol: netabq’ot ‘usrutyeDi pog’ ‘eDyayloq’ English: Their power combined, invincible, Modernized: nItebHa' HoSchaj pagh ['e]jeylaH no' Hol: ‘ach juqmut wob g’irDet / Dyav q’usru g’ir Dya English: The louder they beat, / The larger the storm became. Modernized: 'ach joqmo' wab ghurDI' / jev HoS ghur je no' Hol: quq’ syisi vivbat English: The wind does not respect a fool. Modernized: qoH SuS vuvbe' no' Hol: teqmaaDoDi jotlhDet / [...] ‘ewDoDi tlhipDet / tlhengon ‘eDinesru English: A Klingon must listen / To his hearts / [And] the whispers of his blood. Modernized: tIq[maa]Daj jatlhDI' / [...] 'IwDaj tlhupDI' / tlhIngan 'IjnIS no' Hol: Durmut / tog' English: Out of the end / Came the beginning, Modernized: Dormo' / tagh Note that the ' in *'ew* has been preserved in the modern/future-day {'Iw}, while the ' in *'usru* appears to have become the H in {HoS}. There is also the notable exception of *'qi'tu'* becoming {QI'tu'}. FWIW, in B’elanna’s (or maybe originally Miral’s) “dialect”, at least according to the tape, the word for blood is (usually, but not always) pronounced something like the English word “you” with a clear [j] glide in the beginning of the syllable. We also have a couple of examples of words ending in {oot} morphing into {aw'}. [Note that both of these examples include the syllable *me*, which appears to be an archaic verb prefix for "THEY verb THEM". They also both contain the plural suffix -maa, which is likely a precursor to -mey but is also used for body parts and beings capable of language.] Cool, I like the idea of the verb prefix system originally being more complete, with the zero prefix ambiguity only arising as a result of a later simplification. I also like the distinct plural suffixes being a modern innovation, especially since IRL the separate plural suffix for language capable beings developed out of necessity when the meaning of “qama'pu' jonta' neH” had to be radically altered. no' Hol: 'qinmaa meqoot English: They destroyed their gods. Modernized: Qun[maa] [me]Qaw' no' Hol: [...] mu’qberet tunsroot teqmaa metyanmuq’ English: The hearts created [five] forms of mok’bara Modernized: moQbara' tonSaw' tIq[maa] [me]chenmoH ...and one of words enging in {oy'} morphing into {ay'}: no' Hol: moy’ qitqitmut English: a fierce battle Modernized: may' qu'qu'mo' We have one (somewhat questionable) example that may suggest that certain syllables could change depending on their place in a word: no' Hol: [...] tubba'lit English: [...] unchallenged IF this word corresponds to the modern/future-day {tobbe'lu'}, we would have *ba'* as the precursor of -be' in one word, while also appearing as *bat* in the sentence *quq’ syisi vivbat* above. That would be consistent with proto *t (or another voiceless stop type phoneme) being expressed as allophones [t] or ['] in no' Hol, and developing into ['] in modern ta' Hol. Maybe it was distinguished from the proto-phoneme that developed into modern /t/ (which also seems to have had [t] as an allophone in no' Hol) by place of articulation, being aspirated or not, or something else. //loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org>> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 19:07 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] {'} as [t] - dialect? Am 20.05.2018 um 17:22 schrieb Daniel Dadap:
I was listening to “The Klingon Way” as narrated by Michael Dorn and Roxann Biggs-Dawson, and couldn’t help but notice that it sounds like B’Elanna almost always (but not totally consistently) pronounces the {qaghwI'} as [t]. Perhaps [t] as an allophone of either /t/ or /?/ may have been a feature of Miral’s dialect? Or is it an idiosyncrasy particular to B'elanna?
I would not regard this tape as being any official dialect, not even a canon example of Klingon. SuStel wrote it in a very polite way, but I would just say that this audio book version of TKW is really, really bad. I listened once to it, and stopped halfway because it hurt my ears. Beginners of Klingon should actually never listen to that, because it's just bad Klingon. This information is included in the German version, but I'll add that to the wiki immediately right here: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/TheKlingonWay -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On May 20, 2018, at 18:26, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
but I wasn’t aware that it was actually written in an archaic language.
It's really only the first three cantos that are written in no' Hol, but that's still enough to glean quite a bit of the shifts which have occurred. 'ISqu' posted a very good summary back when the book was first published:
muvuQqu'bej! Dajqu' De'vam.
FWIW, in B’elanna’s (or maybe originally Miral’s) “dialect”, at least according to the tape, the word for blood is (usually, but not always) pronounced something like the English word “you” with a clear [j] glide in the beginning of the syllable.
I think quite a lot of people do this, possibly because the word is often described as sounding like the English word "eww" or "eugh", which sometimes has that glide at the beginning. It's quite possible that that's what her notes said.
//loghaD
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 21:12 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] {'} as [t] - dialect?
On May 20, 2018, at 13:44, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
It certainly wouldn't be outside the realm of plausibility. In fact, something similar happens in some English varieties, with "bottle" being pronounced "bo-uhl" and so forth. Wikipedia uses the example words "cat", "the" and "button": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottal_stop#Occurrence
Yes, in fact I was thinking along the lines of “bo-uhl” here.
As for Klingon: Based on the particular variant of no' Hol that was used in paq'batlh, it appears that word-final {t} morphed into {'} at some point (assuming a direct ancestry; it could simply be a cognate). Perhaps this tendency remains in some dialects, or perhaps it could be a case of convergent evolution.
Wow, I had only vaguely heard of paq'batlh, and was only vaguely aware that it was explained as being ancient (and hence why the title of the book isn’t, for example, batlh paq), but I wasn’t aware that it was actually written in an archaic language.
When I get a bit more experienced with modern ta' Hol I am definitely going to want to check out the no' Hol in paq'batlh, as phonological shifts over time is a particular area of interest for me. The examples you cite below are utterly fascinating, and I find your proposed reconstructions entirely believable.
The occurrence of no'Hol [t] where modern ta' Hol ['] occurs would certainly be a ready explanation for some modern dialects preserving [t], and I find a shift from [t] to ['] perfectly believable.
Here are some examples (with no' Hol and English from the book; the modernized Klingon glossing is my own guesswork, with word order preserved):
no' Hol: [...] teq tyot lityanmaq’ English: [Thus] a second heart was forged. Modernized: [...] tIq cha' luchenmoH
no' Hol: netabq’ot ‘usrutyeDi pog’ ‘eDyayloq’ English: Their power combined, invincible, Modernized: nItebHa' HoSchaj pagh ['e]jeylaH
no' Hol: ‘ach juqmut wob g’irDet / Dyav q’usru g’ir Dya English: The louder they beat, / The larger the storm became. Modernized: 'ach joqmo' wab ghurDI' / jev HoS ghur je
no' Hol: quq’ syisi vivbat English: The wind does not respect a fool. Modernized: qoH SuS vuvbe'
no' Hol: teqmaaDoDi jotlhDet / [...] ‘ewDoDi tlhipDet / tlhengon ‘eDinesru English: A Klingon must listen / To his hearts / [And] the whispers of his blood. Modernized: tIq[maa]Daj jatlhDI' / [...] 'IwDaj tlhupDI' / tlhIngan 'IjnIS
no' Hol: Durmut / tog' English: Out of the end / Came the beginning, Modernized: Dormo' / tagh
Note that the ' in *'ew* has been preserved in the modern/future-day {'Iw}, while the ' in *'usru* appears to have become the H in {HoS}. There is also the notable exception of *'qi'tu'* becoming {QI'tu'}.
FWIW, in B’elanna’s (or maybe originally Miral’s) “dialect”, at least according to the tape, the word for blood is (usually, but not always) pronounced something like the English word “you” with a clear [j] glide in the beginning of the syllable.
We also have a couple of examples of words ending in {oot} morphing into {aw'}. [Note that both of these examples include the syllable *me*, which appears to be an archaic verb prefix for "THEY verb THEM". They also both contain the plural suffix -maa, which is likely a precursor to -mey but is also used for body parts and beings capable of language.]
Cool, I like the idea of the verb prefix system originally being more complete, with the zero prefix ambiguity only arising as a result of a later simplification. I also like the distinct plural suffixes being a modern innovation, especially since IRL the separate plural suffix for language capable beings developed out of necessity when the meaning of “qama'pu' jonta' neH” had to be radically altered.
no' Hol: 'qinmaa meqoot English: They destroyed their gods. Modernized: Qun[maa] [me]Qaw'
no' Hol: [...] mu’qberet tunsroot teqmaa metyanmuq’ English: The hearts created [five] forms of mok’bara Modernized: moQbara' tonSaw' tIq[maa] [me]chenmoH
...and one of words enging in {oy'} morphing into {ay'}:
no' Hol: moy’ qitqitmut English: a fierce battle Modernized: may' qu'qu'mo'
We have one (somewhat questionable) example that may suggest that certain syllables could change depending on their place in a word:
no' Hol: [...] tubba'lit English: [...] unchallenged
IF this word corresponds to the modern/future-day {tobbe'lu'}, we would have *ba'* as the precursor of -be' in one word, while also appearing as *bat* in the sentence *quq’ syisi vivbat* above.
That would be consistent with proto *t (or another voiceless stop type phoneme) being expressed as allophones [t] or ['] in no' Hol, and developing into ['] in modern ta' Hol. Maybe it was distinguished from the proto-phoneme that developed into modern /t/ (which also seems to have had [t] as an allophone in no' Hol) by place of articulation, being aspirated or not, or something else.
//loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 19:07 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] {'} as [t] - dialect?
Am 20.05.2018 um 17:22 schrieb Daniel Dadap:
I was listening to “The Klingon Way” as narrated by Michael Dorn and Roxann Biggs-Dawson, and couldn’t help but notice that it sounds like B’Elanna almost always (but not totally consistently) pronounces the {qaghwI'} as [t]. Perhaps [t] as an allophone of either /t/ or /ʔ/ may have been a feature of Miral’s dialect? Or is it an idiosyncrasy particular to B'elanna?
I would not regard this tape as being any official dialect, not even a canon example of Klingon. SuStel wrote it in a very polite way, but I would just say that this audio book version of TKW is really, really bad. I listened once to it, and stopped halfway because it hurt my ears. Beginners of Klingon should actually never listen to that, because it's just bad Klingon.
This information is included in the German version, but I'll add that to the wiki immediately right here: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/TheKlingonWay
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
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ghItlhpu' Daniel, jatlh:
but I wasn’t aware that it was actually written in an archaic language.
jang loghaD, jatlh:
It's really only the first three cantos that are written in no' Hol, but that's still enough to glean quite a bit of the shifts which have occurred. 'ISqu' posted a very good summary back when the book was first published:
The excellent summary that 'ISqu' posted was focused upon the phonology, and was a follow-up to my summary of no' Hol grammatical features, which Daniel may also find useful or interesting in this context. http://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/2011/November/msg00492.html Regarding the {t}/{'} issue, it may or may not be relevant to note also that the term {Heghbat} "ritual suicide" (KGT) seems to have a variant {Heghba'}, from Ann Crispin's novel "Sarek" whose Klingon material was also provided by Marc Okrand. QeS 'utlh
On May 21, 2018, at 00:15, Rhona Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> wrote:
ghItlhpu' Daniel, jatlh:
but I wasn’t aware that it was actually written in an archaic language.
jang loghaD, jatlh:
It's really only the first three cantos that are written in no' Hol, but that's still enough to glean quite a bit of the shifts which have occurred. 'ISqu' posted a very good summary back when the book was first published:
The excellent summary that 'ISqu' posted was focused upon the phonology, and was a follow-up to my summary of no' Hol grammatical features, which Daniel may also find useful or interesting in this context.
This is delightful, thanks for the pointer!
Regarding the {t}/{'} issue, it may or may not be relevant to note also that the term {Heghbat} "ritual suicide" (KGT) seems to have a variant {Heghba'}, from Ann Crispin's novel "Sarek" whose Klingon material was also provided by Marc Okrand.
Thanks for the example. That does seem to offer additional support for the {t}/{‘} variant hypothesis. I also remembered {ghe''or}/{ghe'tor} as another example. And of course, {QI'lop}/{Qetlop}, which could be suggestive of {Qetlop} being a form that falls somewhere in-between a hypothetical {*'qetlup} in ancient Klingon and {QI'lop} in modern Klingon. Which could make sense if Klingons were able to infer {*lup} -> {lop} by context (QI'lopDaq malopba'), but if the origins of QI'lop as a “military holiday” have become obscure over the years and people have forgotten the “true meaning of QI'lop” (QetlopDaq nuq wIlop?), the connection between {*'qet} -> {QI'} might have been more obscure, yielding {Qetlop}
QeS 'utlh _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On May 20, 2018, at 12:07, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 20.05.2018 um 17:22 schrieb Daniel Dadap: I was listening to “The Klingon Way” as narrated by Michael Dorn and Roxann Biggs-Dawson, and couldn’t help but notice that it sounds like B’Elanna almost always (but not totally consistently) pronounces the {qaghwI'} as [t]. Perhaps [t] as an allophone of either /t/ or /ʔ/ may have been a feature of Miral’s dialect? Or is it an idiosyncrasy particular to B'elanna?
I would not regard this tape as being any official dialect, not even a canon example of Klingon. SuStel wrote it in a very polite way, but I would just say that this audio book version of TKW is really, really bad. I listened once to it, and stopped halfway because it hurt my ears. Beginners of Klingon should actually never listen to that, because it's just bad Klingon.
Thanks, Quvar, SuStel je. Of course it’s just a flawed production, and there were many other pronunciation issues besides {'} as [t]; it’s just that this particular one was fairly consistent, and I thought it was interesting. I do like making up explanations for things that are just artifacts of the realities of a production with limited resources, but I do so just for fun. For example, when T’Kuvma is reciting the qeylIS prayer with his dying breath and says “jIjaHmeH yIwovmoH” when other instances of the prayer are spoken as “maleghmeH yIwovmoH” or “jIleghmeH yIwovmoH”, and indeed the subtitles translate T’Kuvma’s version as “bring us light to see”, my made up explanation is that T’Kuvma knew he was dying and changed the prayer to jIjaHmeH yIwovmoH to mean something like Suto'vo'qor vIjaHmeH yIwovmoH, and that the subtitles are in errror, even though the actual error was almost certainly in the delivery of the line. Anyway, like SuStel said, we don’t know how well a half Klingon who doesn’t really like being Klingon speaks Klingon. That’s what I meant by the pronunciation being idiosyncratic to B’Elanna. If it’s not a feature of Miral’s dialect as I’d like to imagine it is, then I could easily see it just being that B’Elanna speaks Klingon about as well as Roxann Biggs-Dawson does. I do think it’s something of a disservice that the actors didn’t get better coaching for this tape. The coaching for Discovery was excellent in my opinion, and it’s too bad that a tape that purports to be instructional on the Klingon language couldn’t get a similar level of treatment.
This information is included in the German version, but I'll add that to the wiki immediately right here: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/TheKlingonWay
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 20.05.2018 um 20:44 schrieb Daniel Dadap:
other pronunciation issues besides {'} as [t]; it’s just that this particular one was fairly consistent, and I thought it was interesting.
Indeed, this is really interesting, and it's not so wrong to think about this. As Felix explained with PB, the sounds [t] and ['] are very close. I even use this fact for beginners to explain how to do the glottal stop at the end of word, saying like "think of the word bed, and then forget the final sound". Or "pit" to say {pI'}.
For example, when T’Kuvma is reciting the qeylIS prayer
In case you'Re interested, here's some details on that: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/KahlessPrayer -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
participants (5)
-
Daniel Dadap -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Lieven L. Litaer -
Rhona Fenwick -
SuStel